Why Praying Must Be Wrong

[joggerjayne]

One of my pals' eldest has started Philosophy as one A Level option, and I was chatting about the Philosophy of Religion, and how it relates to Theology.

And this came up ...

People say prayers.

But God is omniscient, and sees into everyone's hearts.

So He already knows everything that you are telling him ...

... because He knows EVERYTHING.

And because He also takes care of us (!), He has already decided how to act on the basis of the facts that you are telling him when you pray.

So you are telling God something He already knows, and either ...

Asking Him to do something He has already decided to do (waste of time), or

Asking Him to change His mind. BUT ... because God is infallible, the decision He has already made is, by definition, the correct one, so He will not change His mind, because you are asking Him to abandon the correct decision, and replace it with a wrong decision (also a waste of time).

So, either way, praying is, of necessity, a waste of time.

Just a thought.

[Octavius]

Not necessarily, its a form of meditation and can be used for relaxing, de-stressing and nodding off.

[jno]

E-on know you want electricity. But they won't give you any unless you ask.

[Octavius]

Unlike npower who force it on you and demand a high price with threats of excommunication if you don't adulate their superiority.

[jno]

quite so, npower are more like the devil.

[joggerjayne]

Okay, Octo ...

You are correct.

The argument does specifically relate to Petitionary Prayers, where you are asking God to do something, hoping that your prayers might "work".

By this argument, petition army prayers can never "work" unless you believe that God is not infallible.

And if here is a God, and he's not infallible,mother we are all in trouble, lol.

[andy-hughes]

Prayer - like faith, is not about communcating with God (or any deity) - it's about the human comfort derived from ritual, and the belief that something somewhere is in control of everything.

That is because Man does not like to think there is 'nothing' looking after us, and death is the end, so Man comforts himself with those belief systems - be it God, Mohammed, or an eclipse of the sun - the thinking and psychology is the same.

People who exploit that belief system for their own ends become religious leaders, people not in need of the comfort system become atheists.

[jim360]

Surely the point is in the act of saying it yourself. And even if God knows you are going to pray, and what about it, that requires that therefore you have to pray in order for what He knew to be correct!

In general as soon as you introduce omni-anything into a debate you can find yourself going round in circles. There are two solutions: impose theoretical limits on God, so that omniscience means "knowledge of all that can be known", etc. -- so that, perhaps, God does not after all know certain things because they cannot (at least "at the time") be known. The second solution is, of course, to remove God from the debate entirely.

[joggerjayne]

In that case, AH, praying does not need to be done in a structured way, or at a so called place of worship, right?

It can be done wherever, and however, each person feels that it helps them.

In my Voodoo group, we do it down on the beach, near the Fortune Of War, which is handy for a couple of vodkas afterwards.

Obviously we have to kill a chicken, but the seagulls take care of the carcass.

[joggerjayne]

"Remove God from the debate" sounds like a line from a gangster movie, lol

"Oi Lenny, that God, I want 'im taken out"

"You mean '... taken 'aat' Guv?"

"That's right, Lenny. I want that God taken 'aat."

[Octavius]

Andy, if its a human condition, then one might assume atheists also have some form of invocation.

[Bazile]

What i would be more worried about is why your pal's eldest is wasting time studying Philosophy .

Although you never know ,there might be a future opening for a student with a Philosophy qualification at Jaguar Land Rover

[Old_Geezer]

It doesn't follow. God may be wanting you to ask under a, 'if you don't ask, you don't get', view of things. Who knows what benefits that might bring ? So it's not a case of changing God's mind.

Although one can descend into the free will and, 'does God know what decision you are going to make anyway', discussion if you wish.

[Old_Geezer]

Philosophy exercises the mind on difficult questions. It need not be used directly for career advancement.

It is a similar thing to studying pure as well as applied science. There is value in doing that which has no obvious immediate use.

[doctordb]

I would have thought that modern prayer is just a remnant of a historical form of religious discipline.

[andy-hughes]

JJ - "In that case, AH, praying does not need to be done in a structured way, or at a so called place of worship, right?"

Indeed.

My recall of the bible is understandably sketchy, but there is something about not praying on street corners imagining that the more people see you, the more relavent your prayers are - and then something about going somehere quiet to commune with God in private.

So that's the churches stuffed for a start!

[andy-hughes]

Octavius - "Andy, if its a human condition, then one might assume atheists also have some form of invocation."

Sorry, I don't understand, could you elaborate please?

[joggerjayne]

OG has said what I was going to say.

As a discipline, Philosophy teaches young people to take a combination of facts and opinions, to analyse them, to assess the validity of each, and to formulate their own argument based on the information to hand.

In short ... it trains them to cut through the crap.

[joggerjayne]

// going somehere quiet to commune with God in private //

I suppose it's just me thinking ... on the loo ??

[tonyav]

I have found that praying seldom works, if it worked then the Villa would win every match !.

[ck1]

It's only wrong in the same way that talking to your imaginary friend is wrong. Who says god is infallible anyway, I can see a few screw ups around that would prove otherwise!