Good Morning Boxing Day Birds!
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Parable
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Friend sent me this. I found it interesting, but not sure many will agree.
Here's something interesting to ponder about : For those who believe in God and for those who don't believe in HIM. It stimulates our lateral thinking :
This lovely parable is from "Your Sacred Self" by Dr. Wayne Dyer.
In a mother’s womb were two babies. One asked the other: “Do you believe in life after delivery?”The other replied, “Why, of course. There has to be something after delivery. Maybe we are here to prepare ourselves for what we will be later.”
“Nonsense” said the first. “There is no life after delivery. What kind of life would that be?”
The second said, “I don’t know, but there will be more light than here. Maybe we will walk with our legs and eat from our mouths. Maybe we will have other senses that we can’t understand now.”
The first replied, “That is absurd. Walking is impossible. And eating with our mouths? Ridiculous! The umbilical cord supplies nutrition and everything we need. But the umbilical cord is so short. Life after delivery is to be logically excluded.”
The second insisted, “Well I think there is something and maybe it’s different than it is here. Maybe we won’t need this physical cord any more.”
The first replied, “Nonsense. And moreover if there is life, then why has no one ever come back from there? Delivery is the end of life, and in the after-delivery there is nothing but darkness and silence and oblivion. It takes us nowhere.”
“Well, I don’t know,” said the second, “but certainly we will meet Mother and she will take care of us.”
The first replied “Mother? You actually believe in Mother? That’s laughable. If Mother exists then where is She now?”
The second said, “She is all around us. We are surrounded by her. We are of Her. It is in Her that we live. Without Her this world would not and could not exist.”
Said the first: “Well I don’t see Her, so it is only logical that She doesn’t exist.”
To which the second replied, “Sometimes, when you’re in silence and you focus and you really listen, you can perceive Her presence, and you can hear Her loving voice, calling down from above.”
Isn't this something similar to what we perceive in our lives as well ?? Just think about it.
Here's something interesting to ponder about : For those who believe in God and for those who don't believe in HIM. It stimulates our lateral thinking :
This lovely parable is from "Your Sacred Self" by Dr. Wayne Dyer.
In a mother’s womb were two babies. One asked the other: “Do you believe in life after delivery?”The other replied, “Why, of course. There has to be something after delivery. Maybe we are here to prepare ourselves for what we will be later.”
“Nonsense” said the first. “There is no life after delivery. What kind of life would that be?”
The second said, “I don’t know, but there will be more light than here. Maybe we will walk with our legs and eat from our mouths. Maybe we will have other senses that we can’t understand now.”
The first replied, “That is absurd. Walking is impossible. And eating with our mouths? Ridiculous! The umbilical cord supplies nutrition and everything we need. But the umbilical cord is so short. Life after delivery is to be logically excluded.”
The second insisted, “Well I think there is something and maybe it’s different than it is here. Maybe we won’t need this physical cord any more.”
The first replied, “Nonsense. And moreover if there is life, then why has no one ever come back from there? Delivery is the end of life, and in the after-delivery there is nothing but darkness and silence and oblivion. It takes us nowhere.”
“Well, I don’t know,” said the second, “but certainly we will meet Mother and she will take care of us.”
The first replied “Mother? You actually believe in Mother? That’s laughable. If Mother exists then where is She now?”
The second said, “She is all around us. We are surrounded by her. We are of Her. It is in Her that we live. Without Her this world would not and could not exist.”
Said the first: “Well I don’t see Her, so it is only logical that She doesn’t exist.”
To which the second replied, “Sometimes, when you’re in silence and you focus and you really listen, you can perceive Her presence, and you can hear Her loving voice, calling down from above.”
Isn't this something similar to what we perceive in our lives as well ?? Just think about it.
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Maggiebee,
I was listening to some religious person talking about when I die God will love me and look after me. My immediate and gut reaction was NEVER AGAIN will I trust anybody. If god is so great why did I have to suffer so much? I was suicidal from the age of 8 but could not hang myself. The only god thing about me is that I should of turned out quite evil but inside me there is this good part of me that couldn't hurt anyone. I don't know where it came from, it has been a blessing but also a curse.
I was listening to some religious person talking about when I die God will love me and look after me. My immediate and gut reaction was NEVER AGAIN will I trust anybody. If god is so great why did I have to suffer so much? I was suicidal from the age of 8 but could not hang myself. The only god thing about me is that I should of turned out quite evil but inside me there is this good part of me that couldn't hurt anyone. I don't know where it came from, it has been a blessing but also a curse.
Not from the babies in the parable's perception SJ…
And Gavmacp… you have my sympathies for the life you've lived so far… but, if I understand you, a God that you do not believe in hasn't treated you the way you'd expect… what kind of logic is that?
The 23rd Psalm says even though I walk through the valley of the shade of death, I will fear no evil, since You are with me. My own experience and of many of those around me supports God's everlasting promise that He will never leave or forsake me due to one thing and one thing only… the sacrifice of his only Son, Yeshua, who paid a debt he didn't owe for me who could have never paid the debt. The only thing I have to do is believe He is who he says He is and that His love for me (and all mankind) is beyond my comprehension...
And Gavmacp… you have my sympathies for the life you've lived so far… but, if I understand you, a God that you do not believe in hasn't treated you the way you'd expect… what kind of logic is that?
The 23rd Psalm says even though I walk through the valley of the shade of death, I will fear no evil, since You are with me. My own experience and of many of those around me supports God's everlasting promise that He will never leave or forsake me due to one thing and one thing only… the sacrifice of his only Son, Yeshua, who paid a debt he didn't owe for me who could have never paid the debt. The only thing I have to do is believe He is who he says He is and that His love for me (and all mankind) is beyond my comprehension...
I agree with Jim. It is an absurd analogy, but Dr Dyer has been accused of plagiarism so that might get him off the hook. Here's something else from him, although I'm not sure it will be quite to your taste…..
"My beliefs are that the truth is a truth until you organize it, and then becomes a lie. I don't think that Jesus was teaching Christianity, Jesus was teaching kindness, love, concern, and peace. What I tell people is don't be Christian, be Christ-like. Don't be Buddhist, be Buddha-like. Religion is orthodoxy, rules and historical scriptures maintained by people over long periods of time. Generally people are raised to obey the customs and practices of that religion without question. These are customs and expectations from outside the person and do not fit my definition of spiritual."
Clanad, //My own experience and of many of those around me supports God's everlasting promise that He will never leave or forsake me//
What a pity his chosen people, the victims of the holocaust, didn't share your experience.
"My beliefs are that the truth is a truth until you organize it, and then becomes a lie. I don't think that Jesus was teaching Christianity, Jesus was teaching kindness, love, concern, and peace. What I tell people is don't be Christian, be Christ-like. Don't be Buddhist, be Buddha-like. Religion is orthodoxy, rules and historical scriptures maintained by people over long periods of time. Generally people are raised to obey the customs and practices of that religion without question. These are customs and expectations from outside the person and do not fit my definition of spiritual."
Clanad, //My own experience and of many of those around me supports God's everlasting promise that He will never leave or forsake me//
What a pity his chosen people, the victims of the holocaust, didn't share your experience.
I'm unsure of what your point is, naomi. Evil has existed since that incident in the garden and God has always guarded a remnant of His people in the face of pure evil... as He promised to do. Through the Babylonian conquest and captivity as well as many other terrible circumstances, in each case Yahweh brought His people through the hatred and persecution... often when they were in direct rebellion to Him.
Additionally, "... While nothing can justify the Holocaust, we do see at least one good thing which came from World War II: Israel now exists as a nation. The Holocaust was a primary reason the White Paper of 1939 was rescinded, freeing Jews to immigrate to Palestine. The fact that, as of 1948, the Jews have a restored national identity helps to fulfill such biblical prophecies as Ezekiel 37 and Matthew 24. Defeating Nazism and giving the land of Israel back to the Jews is a classic example of God’s thwarting Satan’s plan and bringing about good in spite of the evil." (Source: Deliver Us from Evil: Restoring the Soul in a Disintegrating Culture by Ravi Zacharias)
To be sure, nothing in my experience is attributable to me, other than investigating what, to me, is life's most important question...
Additionally, "... While nothing can justify the Holocaust, we do see at least one good thing which came from World War II: Israel now exists as a nation. The Holocaust was a primary reason the White Paper of 1939 was rescinded, freeing Jews to immigrate to Palestine. The fact that, as of 1948, the Jews have a restored national identity helps to fulfill such biblical prophecies as Ezekiel 37 and Matthew 24. Defeating Nazism and giving the land of Israel back to the Jews is a classic example of God’s thwarting Satan’s plan and bringing about good in spite of the evil." (Source: Deliver Us from Evil: Restoring the Soul in a Disintegrating Culture by Ravi Zacharias)
To be sure, nothing in my experience is attributable to me, other than investigating what, to me, is life's most important question...
The problem with that is that one could just as well interpret the Jews' survival in the face of various dire catastrophes as a consequence of the fact that it is almost impossible to deliberately wipe out an entire population. One should expect the Jewish culture to have survived the Holocaust, or the Babylonian occupations, or the persecution faced throughout the Middle Ages, without divine intervention.
Compare with the fate of the American peoples after the European invasion started in 1492. Then the local population was devastated mainly by the arrival of European diseases to which there was no natural resistance, and even that wasn't enough to wipe the lot of them out. No divine intervention there either, presumably, since they weren't the "chosen". Reading the survival of the Jews as evidence of God's protection from pure evil is dubious at best.
Incidentally, why can the Babylonians be thought of as pure evil any more so than the Jews were when they uprooted the local population that was already living in the promised land?
Compare with the fate of the American peoples after the European invasion started in 1492. Then the local population was devastated mainly by the arrival of European diseases to which there was no natural resistance, and even that wasn't enough to wipe the lot of them out. No divine intervention there either, presumably, since they weren't the "chosen". Reading the survival of the Jews as evidence of God's protection from pure evil is dubious at best.
Incidentally, why can the Babylonians be thought of as pure evil any more so than the Jews were when they uprooted the local population that was already living in the promised land?
Clanad, //I'm unsure of what your point is, naomi.//
You say that God loves all mankind and gave an everlasting promise that he will never leave or forsake you. Is that just you or the 'all mankind' you speak of? My point is that God wasn't there for the Jews. If he exists, he did leave them and he did forsake them. I wonder how many futile prayers were said in Auschwitz? I could weep buckets just thinking about the utter hopelessness of it all.
//we do see at least one good thing which came from World War II: Israel now exists as a nation.//
That's a good thing? The Middle East has been in turmoil ever since - and the chaos is spreading. What's good about that? Oh that those anonymous writers had sprained their wrists before they ever thought of recording their superstitious nonsense for posterity! The Jews wouldn't have thought of themselves as somehow special, their eternal ambition to return to Israel wouldn't have existed and the world would now be a better place for all.
You say that God loves all mankind and gave an everlasting promise that he will never leave or forsake you. Is that just you or the 'all mankind' you speak of? My point is that God wasn't there for the Jews. If he exists, he did leave them and he did forsake them. I wonder how many futile prayers were said in Auschwitz? I could weep buckets just thinking about the utter hopelessness of it all.
//we do see at least one good thing which came from World War II: Israel now exists as a nation.//
That's a good thing? The Middle East has been in turmoil ever since - and the chaos is spreading. What's good about that? Oh that those anonymous writers had sprained their wrists before they ever thought of recording their superstitious nonsense for posterity! The Jews wouldn't have thought of themselves as somehow special, their eternal ambition to return to Israel wouldn't have existed and the world would now be a better place for all.
All mankind, naomi. Problem is you seem to want everyone to live forever. As terrible as Auschwitz (and all the other camps) were death came to the prisoners just as certainly as death will come to me and you. Death, even painful death isn't a major concern simply because in the scheme of things, it is only a part of life.
Do I have pity for the children or others facing death in that manner? Certainly, but it's over in a heartbeat and the reward then found by the Jews is living with Yahweh forever. And none can even begin to imagine what that will be like.
For the Gentile to experience the same promise only requires one thing… answer the invitation found in Romans 10:9: "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved". That's it! Nothing more or less.
I fully understand that we'd like to dictate to God exactly how things should be… making us all gods if we could actually do that. But, frankly I gladly admit I don't have that wisdom and never will.
Among the 'superstitious nonsense' recorded for posterity are some of the most beautiful words ever put to paper as well as prophecies that are indisputable and wisdom that is startling.
Frankly, God will do as He wishes concerning the Jews. They've spent centuries being in rebellion against God, yet He still blesses them. He gave the land of Cannaan to them whether you or I like it or not.
I would argue that the 'trouble' in the Middle East isn't entirely about the Jews. It's origin is in a religion that has never, since its inception, brought a country or people into itself by reason or kindness. Only by conquering… "The Quran or the Scimitar" was the battle standard as it is today.
But, thank you for the discussion!
Do I have pity for the children or others facing death in that manner? Certainly, but it's over in a heartbeat and the reward then found by the Jews is living with Yahweh forever. And none can even begin to imagine what that will be like.
For the Gentile to experience the same promise only requires one thing… answer the invitation found in Romans 10:9: "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved". That's it! Nothing more or less.
I fully understand that we'd like to dictate to God exactly how things should be… making us all gods if we could actually do that. But, frankly I gladly admit I don't have that wisdom and never will.
Among the 'superstitious nonsense' recorded for posterity are some of the most beautiful words ever put to paper as well as prophecies that are indisputable and wisdom that is startling.
Frankly, God will do as He wishes concerning the Jews. They've spent centuries being in rebellion against God, yet He still blesses them. He gave the land of Cannaan to them whether you or I like it or not.
I would argue that the 'trouble' in the Middle East isn't entirely about the Jews. It's origin is in a religion that has never, since its inception, brought a country or people into itself by reason or kindness. Only by conquering… "The Quran or the Scimitar" was the battle standard as it is today.
But, thank you for the discussion!
Clanad, //Problem is you seem to want everyone to live forever.//
Coming from someone who is convinced that if he’s sufficiently obsequious towards an unproven supernatural entity he WILL live for ever, that’s a very odd statement – and even stranger when aimed at an atheist who fully accepts that she will eventually die. Your god might be rather more convincing if he could bring himself to be true to his word, that’s all – but he isn’t.
//I fully understand that we'd like to dictate to God exactly how things should be… making us all gods if we could actually do that. But, frankly I gladly admit I don't have that wisdom and never will.//
I don’t understand this claim to wisdom that God apparently makes and that his followers endorse. His track record speaks for itself.
//Among the 'superstitious nonsense' recorded for posterity are some of the most beautiful words ever put to paper//
… and also some of the most barbarically vile and cruel words ever put to paper – but that’s conveniently ignored.
//He [God] gave the land of Cannaan to them whether you or I like it or not.//
That comes across as a statement of fact, but it isn’t fact. Even if the stories are true, which is arguable, the Israelites invaded those lands and took possession of them, slaughtering wholesale as they went. God gave them nothing.
//I would argue that the 'trouble' in the Middle East isn't entirely about the Jews.//
Of course you would argue it because it doesn’t suit your purpose to assess the facts with an unbiased eye.
//It's origin is in a religion that has never, since its inception, brought a country or people into itself by reason or kindness. Only by conquering… "The Quran or the Scimitar" was the battle standard as it is today.//
That is disingenuous. As much as I abhor Islam and all that it stands for, I am not disingenuous. In truth Islam didn’t exist when the Jews decided they were special and the spectre of the Promised Land, the crux of the matter, raised its destructive head. Additionally, I have already referred to the mass slaughter perpetrated by the Israelites, but the similarity between the two factions seems to have escaped your notice.
Incidentally, when the script is pre-written fulfilling prophecy isn’t difficult. Jesus did it all the time.
//thank you for the discussion!//
You’re welcome.
Coming from someone who is convinced that if he’s sufficiently obsequious towards an unproven supernatural entity he WILL live for ever, that’s a very odd statement – and even stranger when aimed at an atheist who fully accepts that she will eventually die. Your god might be rather more convincing if he could bring himself to be true to his word, that’s all – but he isn’t.
//I fully understand that we'd like to dictate to God exactly how things should be… making us all gods if we could actually do that. But, frankly I gladly admit I don't have that wisdom and never will.//
I don’t understand this claim to wisdom that God apparently makes and that his followers endorse. His track record speaks for itself.
//Among the 'superstitious nonsense' recorded for posterity are some of the most beautiful words ever put to paper//
… and also some of the most barbarically vile and cruel words ever put to paper – but that’s conveniently ignored.
//He [God] gave the land of Cannaan to them whether you or I like it or not.//
That comes across as a statement of fact, but it isn’t fact. Even if the stories are true, which is arguable, the Israelites invaded those lands and took possession of them, slaughtering wholesale as they went. God gave them nothing.
//I would argue that the 'trouble' in the Middle East isn't entirely about the Jews.//
Of course you would argue it because it doesn’t suit your purpose to assess the facts with an unbiased eye.
//It's origin is in a religion that has never, since its inception, brought a country or people into itself by reason or kindness. Only by conquering… "The Quran or the Scimitar" was the battle standard as it is today.//
That is disingenuous. As much as I abhor Islam and all that it stands for, I am not disingenuous. In truth Islam didn’t exist when the Jews decided they were special and the spectre of the Promised Land, the crux of the matter, raised its destructive head. Additionally, I have already referred to the mass slaughter perpetrated by the Israelites, but the similarity between the two factions seems to have escaped your notice.
Incidentally, when the script is pre-written fulfilling prophecy isn’t difficult. Jesus did it all the time.
//thank you for the discussion!//
You’re welcome.
Duly noted, naomi. Obviously, we disagree, but to address each of your points one by one wouldn't change anything and would be very time consuming... but they have been addressed individually for centuries by men (and women) much more intelligent than I.
I guess I would only ask why you (and some other athiests) always seem so angry when discussing these issues? I suppose I could be misreading your post(s) but it just kinda hangs there each time we terminate this discussion...
I guess I would only ask why you (and some other athiests) always seem so angry when discussing these issues? I suppose I could be misreading your post(s) but it just kinda hangs there each time we terminate this discussion...
@Clanad
//The fact that, as of 1948, the Jews have a restored national identity helps to fulfill such biblical prophecies as Ezekiel 37 and Matthew 24.//
I'd be interested to know the exact wording of those passages. I do not recall Britain or France getting a mention in the Bible, for instance. Specifically, does it say the land is gifted to them (by another nation), gifted to them (by God), or conquered back?
// Defeating Nazism and giving the land of Israel back to the Jews is a classic example of God’s thwarting Satan’s plan and bringing about good in spite of the evil." //
I would have thought every 1st commandment breach would count as a
score for team evil?
How many thousands of dead since 1948?
Why couldn't we have given them a homeland thousands of miles away from any Arab land posessions?
//The fact that, as of 1948, the Jews have a restored national identity helps to fulfill such biblical prophecies as Ezekiel 37 and Matthew 24.//
I'd be interested to know the exact wording of those passages. I do not recall Britain or France getting a mention in the Bible, for instance. Specifically, does it say the land is gifted to them (by another nation), gifted to them (by God), or conquered back?
// Defeating Nazism and giving the land of Israel back to the Jews is a classic example of God’s thwarting Satan’s plan and bringing about good in spite of the evil." //
I would have thought every 1st commandment breach would count as a
score for team evil?
How many thousands of dead since 1948?
Why couldn't we have given them a homeland thousands of miles away from any Arab land posessions?
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