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Freedom To Choose
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Why do religious people think that we have a CHOICE in what we believe or dont believe?
I had an interesting conversation this morning with a couple of door knocking JW's. Unlike most people I actually enjoy a bit of banter with them when they come knocking, actually makes me feel good that I'm relatively sane when they've gone.
The conversation went along the lines that we have a choice to accept (their version of ) God. I pointed out that belief is not a choice, I cant make myself believe something that I find patently absurd. My present beliefs (religious, political or otherwise) are based on my level of understanding to date aquirred through knowledge and experience. They then talked about the need for repentance when I pointed out that that in itself is a belief...and one that I dont share as I dont see myself as a sinner in need of forgiveness from some deity. They seemed a bit aghast at that. I pointed out that I was quiet aware of my shortcomings but that wasnt the same thing as sin, which is an alien concept to me.
What I didnt point out to them was that I went through a religious period in my teenage years but eventually had to give it up as I valued truth over doctrine...I couldnt 'make' myself believe what I was been taught anymore than I could still believe in Santa.
I just wondered if any religious ABers (goodlife, keyplus etc) can grasp the concept that non believers are not non believers by choice but by understanding, experience and knowledge?
Thanks
I had an interesting conversation this morning with a couple of door knocking JW's. Unlike most people I actually enjoy a bit of banter with them when they come knocking, actually makes me feel good that I'm relatively sane when they've gone.
The conversation went along the lines that we have a choice to accept (their version of ) God. I pointed out that belief is not a choice, I cant make myself believe something that I find patently absurd. My present beliefs (religious, political or otherwise) are based on my level of understanding to date aquirred through knowledge and experience. They then talked about the need for repentance when I pointed out that that in itself is a belief...and one that I dont share as I dont see myself as a sinner in need of forgiveness from some deity. They seemed a bit aghast at that. I pointed out that I was quiet aware of my shortcomings but that wasnt the same thing as sin, which is an alien concept to me.
What I didnt point out to them was that I went through a religious period in my teenage years but eventually had to give it up as I valued truth over doctrine...I couldnt 'make' myself believe what I was been taught anymore than I could still believe in Santa.
I just wondered if any religious ABers (goodlife, keyplus etc) can grasp the concept that non believers are not non believers by choice but by understanding, experience and knowledge?
Thanks
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Naomi, it's hardly embellishment when the facts as spoken to in the New Testament clearly elevates the status of women... not only from the Old Covenant but also as related to the surrounding culture(s) of the time.
The first person to discover Yeshua was not in his grave and, in fact, met Him face to face was a woman and she was followed to the tomb when she told the Disciples on Easter Morning... additionally, "... women are not only equals with men (Galatians 3:28), but are also set apart for special honor (1 Peter 3:7). Husbands are commanded to love their wives sacrificially, as Christ loves the church--even, if necessary, at the cost of their own lives (Ephesians 5:25-31). The Bible acknowledges and celebrates the priceless value of a virtuous woman (Proverbs 12:4; 31:10; 1 Corinthians 11:7).
It is no surprise therefore that women became prominent in the ministry of the early church (Acts 12:12-15; 1 Corinthians 11:11-15). On the day of Pentecost, when the New Testament church was born, women were there with the chief disciples, praying (Acts 1:12-14). Some were renowned for their good deeds (Acts 9:36); others for their hospitality (Acts 12:12; 16:14-15); still others for their understanding of sound doctrine and their spiritual giftedness (Acts 18:26; 21:8-9). John's second epistle was addressed to a prominent woman in one of the churches under his oversight. Even the apostle Paul, sometimes falsely caricatured by critics of Scripture as a male chauvinist, regularly ministered alongside women (Philippians 4:3). He recognized and applauded their faithfulness and their giftedness (Romans 16:1-6; 2 Timothy 1:5)" (Source: Twelve Extraordinary Women, John MacArthur).
This all at a time and place where women could be stoned to death for even appearing in public without a proper male escort... among other injustices.
The first person to discover Yeshua was not in his grave and, in fact, met Him face to face was a woman and she was followed to the tomb when she told the Disciples on Easter Morning... additionally, "... women are not only equals with men (Galatians 3:28), but are also set apart for special honor (1 Peter 3:7). Husbands are commanded to love their wives sacrificially, as Christ loves the church--even, if necessary, at the cost of their own lives (Ephesians 5:25-31). The Bible acknowledges and celebrates the priceless value of a virtuous woman (Proverbs 12:4; 31:10; 1 Corinthians 11:7).
It is no surprise therefore that women became prominent in the ministry of the early church (Acts 12:12-15; 1 Corinthians 11:11-15). On the day of Pentecost, when the New Testament church was born, women were there with the chief disciples, praying (Acts 1:12-14). Some were renowned for their good deeds (Acts 9:36); others for their hospitality (Acts 12:12; 16:14-15); still others for their understanding of sound doctrine and their spiritual giftedness (Acts 18:26; 21:8-9). John's second epistle was addressed to a prominent woman in one of the churches under his oversight. Even the apostle Paul, sometimes falsely caricatured by critics of Scripture as a male chauvinist, regularly ministered alongside women (Philippians 4:3). He recognized and applauded their faithfulness and their giftedness (Romans 16:1-6; 2 Timothy 1:5)" (Source: Twelve Extraordinary Women, John MacArthur).
This all at a time and place where women could be stoned to death for even appearing in public without a proper male escort... among other injustices.
-- answer removed --
Clanad, you forgot this one …
The women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
and this ....
Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
and this…..
Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, … also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.
I won’t go on. You see what you want to see.
I don’t understand why you think that Mary’s discovery of the empty tomb was such a privilege, or what is so wonderful about the Bible acknowledging and celebrating the priceless value of a virtuous woman. That smacks of chatteldom (I think I made that word up, but I’m sure you get my drift). It’s a bit like comparing a woman to a valued piece of livestock so really nothing to crow about! And where are all the men when all this virtue is being celebrated?
//This all at a time and place where women could be stoned to death for even appearing in public without a proper male escort...//
Which place are you talking about?
The women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
and this ....
Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
and this…..
Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, … also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.
I won’t go on. You see what you want to see.
I don’t understand why you think that Mary’s discovery of the empty tomb was such a privilege, or what is so wonderful about the Bible acknowledging and celebrating the priceless value of a virtuous woman. That smacks of chatteldom (I think I made that word up, but I’m sure you get my drift). It’s a bit like comparing a woman to a valued piece of livestock so really nothing to crow about! And where are all the men when all this virtue is being celebrated?
//This all at a time and place where women could be stoned to death for even appearing in public without a proper male escort...//
Which place are you talking about?
I see what I want to see, naomi, which is a cultural shift towards women for which Believer's in the 1st century suffered the wrath of the Jewish leaders who clearly felt the new church was suborning the old traditions (which they were.
Firstly, Naomi, we need to recognize a basic difference in our approach to Scripture. From previous exchanges I know, for instance, that you do not allow any other reading of a verse other than that which you maintain applies.
However, scholarship of the text needs an overall knowledge (of which I have only a slight amount) of the context, applicability in light of other such renderings as well as a source for the meaning of the translated words, be they Aramaic, Greek or Hebrew.
With that our of the way, it’s clear, at least to me, when compared to other of Paul’s writings, the verses prompting your question(s) indicate only a temporary prohibition in a very narrow circumstance.
We know from the rest of the New Testament that Priscilla instructed Apollos, Phoebe was a deacon and Paul’s emissary to Rome, and Lydia oversaw the church at Philippi. Junia is called an apostle and was imprisoned for her witness. It seems unlikely that these things could have been accomplished while being quiet in church or without any church authority.
It is probably no coincidence that the one passage in the Bible prohibiting women teaching Scripture appears in the one set of letters where we explicitly know that false teachers were targeting and working through women. Paul’s letters to Timothy in Ephesus provide a glimpse of the situation: false teachers (1 Timothy 1:6,7,19,20; 6:3—5; 2 Timothy 2:17) were misleading the women (2 Timothy 3:6,7). These women were probably (and especially) some widows who owned houses the false teachers could use for their meetings as seen in 1 Timothy 5:13. One of the Greek terms here indicates spreading nonsense.) Women were the most susceptible to false teaching only because they had been granted the least education. This behavior was bound to bring reproach on the church from a hostile society that was already convinced Christians subverted the traditional roles of women and slaves. So Paul provided a short-range solution: "Do not teach" (under the present circumstances); and a long-range solution: "Let them learn" (1 Timothy 2:11). (Partial Source: Women in the Church (Downers Grove: InterVarsity, 1995).
You end your quote of Ephesians 5:22 to soon, because you and I both know it goes on in vs25 to say "... Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself...
Women in the Old Testament were considered chattell and greatly restricted. Numerous areas of the Talmud describe penalties for women's actions, including stoning.
Mary Magdalene was honored with the first meeting of the risen Christ because of her unending devotion to Him during his ministry. John 20:1-18 describes the event. But, even more startling, given the culture of the times when she ran to tell the Apostles, they believed her and Peter and John also ran to the tomb. Given the times, she would have simply been viewed as a chattering chipmunk by others not familiar with Yeshua's high view of women.
Firstly, Naomi, we need to recognize a basic difference in our approach to Scripture. From previous exchanges I know, for instance, that you do not allow any other reading of a verse other than that which you maintain applies.
However, scholarship of the text needs an overall knowledge (of which I have only a slight amount) of the context, applicability in light of other such renderings as well as a source for the meaning of the translated words, be they Aramaic, Greek or Hebrew.
With that our of the way, it’s clear, at least to me, when compared to other of Paul’s writings, the verses prompting your question(s) indicate only a temporary prohibition in a very narrow circumstance.
We know from the rest of the New Testament that Priscilla instructed Apollos, Phoebe was a deacon and Paul’s emissary to Rome, and Lydia oversaw the church at Philippi. Junia is called an apostle and was imprisoned for her witness. It seems unlikely that these things could have been accomplished while being quiet in church or without any church authority.
It is probably no coincidence that the one passage in the Bible prohibiting women teaching Scripture appears in the one set of letters where we explicitly know that false teachers were targeting and working through women. Paul’s letters to Timothy in Ephesus provide a glimpse of the situation: false teachers (1 Timothy 1:6,7,19,20; 6:3—5; 2 Timothy 2:17) were misleading the women (2 Timothy 3:6,7). These women were probably (and especially) some widows who owned houses the false teachers could use for their meetings as seen in 1 Timothy 5:13. One of the Greek terms here indicates spreading nonsense.) Women were the most susceptible to false teaching only because they had been granted the least education. This behavior was bound to bring reproach on the church from a hostile society that was already convinced Christians subverted the traditional roles of women and slaves. So Paul provided a short-range solution: "Do not teach" (under the present circumstances); and a long-range solution: "Let them learn" (1 Timothy 2:11). (Partial Source: Women in the Church (Downers Grove: InterVarsity, 1995).
You end your quote of Ephesians 5:22 to soon, because you and I both know it goes on in vs25 to say "... Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself...
Women in the Old Testament were considered chattell and greatly restricted. Numerous areas of the Talmud describe penalties for women's actions, including stoning.
Mary Magdalene was honored with the first meeting of the risen Christ because of her unending devotion to Him during his ministry. John 20:1-18 describes the event. But, even more startling, given the culture of the times when she ran to tell the Apostles, they believed her and Peter and John also ran to the tomb. Given the times, she would have simply been viewed as a chattering chipmunk by others not familiar with Yeshua's high view of women.
Clanad, you see what you want to see. Where, for example, is your justification for this claim?
//Mary Magdalene was honored with the first meeting of the risen Christ because of her unending devotion to Him during his ministry.//
You mentioned Peter earlier, and I assume you believe he died for his faith, but as far as I know whilst other men years after the event may have come up with fanciful stories, the bible doesn’t record his eventual demise. He simply ‘peters out’. He disappears from the scene entirely without reference to his eventual fate. You distance yourself from the Catholic church, but in reality you support the lies it manufactured hundreds of years ago, and the lies it continues to propagate. Despite all the references you give, it is, after all, the original.
//Mary Magdalene was honored with the first meeting of the risen Christ because of her unending devotion to Him during his ministry.//
You mentioned Peter earlier, and I assume you believe he died for his faith, but as far as I know whilst other men years after the event may have come up with fanciful stories, the bible doesn’t record his eventual demise. He simply ‘peters out’. He disappears from the scene entirely without reference to his eventual fate. You distance yourself from the Catholic church, but in reality you support the lies it manufactured hundreds of years ago, and the lies it continues to propagate. Despite all the references you give, it is, after all, the original.
Jomifil, your answer @ 23.33 tue
//Life probably evolved on earth because conditions were right for it, just as it would have evolved differently if conditions were different .//
Life doesn't appear to have evolved at all under the different conditions of the other planets in our solar system .
// I guess you won't understand that.//
//Life probably evolved on earth because conditions were right for it, just as it would have evolved differently if conditions were different .//
Life doesn't appear to have evolved at all under the different conditions of the other planets in our solar system .
// I guess you won't understand that.//
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