Do Christians And Muslims Worship The Same God.

[gordiescotland1]

Hi There I saw a post on facebook that said Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God. And I copied it on to my wall. Anyway one of my really pc friends said that is not true and it is hate crime to say that and if it is not removed she will phone the police. But surely that is true. Muslims worship Allah where as Christians worship God?

[jomifl]

Which bit don't you understand?

[jomifl]

Khandro, I am an atheist yet I don't have any compulsion to slaughter anybody, it follows that atheism does not compel anyone to carry out slaughter. Karl Marx was a political idealist as well a being a megalomaniac monster and probably a lot of other things too. There is a very strong possibility that it was his belief in a political system that led to his atrocities not his lack of belief in a deity. I really cannot see how you make the intellectual leap from lacking belief in a deity to the need to slaughter.

[Khandro]

jomifl; // I really cannot see how you make the intellectual leap from lacking belief in a deity to the need to slaughter.//
Nor do I, but that should be addressed not to me, but to Stalin, Mao, Kim il-sung, et al. This line of argument began by birdie and you falsely claiming that atheists were not responsible for the bloodshed of believers, - or words to that effect.

[jomifl]

Khandro, There is little point in my repeating myself, you either don't understand or don't want to understand.

[Khandro]

jomifl; Ditto!

[naomi24]

Khandro, //When religion was outlawed//

Religion was never 'outlawed' in the USSR. Do your homework.

[Auxarcs]

Tho traditionalists get all bent out of shape over the idea, i believe we do worship the God, just by different names and with different ideas about Him. God blessed both Isaac and Ishmael, both Abrahams sons, with almost identical blessing, the only difference being God formed a binding covenant with Isaac He did not have with Ishmael. From Isaacs twelve tribes rose Judaism and later Christianity and from Ishmaels twelve tribes rose Islam. Combining the three makes Abraham the spiritual 'father' of about 5 billion of the worlds approx. seven billion population, multiplied by many centuries, in part fullfilling the bit of Gods covenant promising his descendants would be almost uncountable.
So yes i believe God/Allah is one and the same but viewed and worshipped differently thru different human traditions, just as i know Jews and Christians worship tge same God despite differing views and beliefs about Him and Christ.

[mibn2cweus]

If all are believed to be the same god why are so many willing to kill and die for the sake of quibbling over their preferred delusion?

[Khandro]

//If all are believed to be the same god why are so many willing to kill and die ....//

That's the 64 thousand dollar question!

naomi; I did my homework long ago, strictly speaking, you are right, but the Soviet Union was ruled by decrees shunning the niceties of law. To all intents and purposes religion was outlawed, and those resisting were severely punished, many by death.

[naomi24]

Khandro, this is far more complex than you would have us believe. The church in Russia was very much part of the ‘establishment’ and many church leaders actively encouraged opposition to the revolution. This wasn’t simply atheism attempting to destroy religion – it was a complete ethos that intended the destruction of personal freedoms on every level, including freedom of enterprise and moreover, freedom of thought. A thoroughly naively flawed philosophy that promulgated the impossible notion that all men are equal, completely disregarding the reality that, under any regime, some are, and always will be, more equal than others. This wasn’t about atheism – it was about the state’s intention of reigning supreme in controlling the masses in every aspect of their lives. Atheism is not the culprit here. That charge rests with an ill-considered and wholly unworkable idealism.

[naomi24]

... and the same goes for Mao, Kim il-sung, et al, too.

[Khandro]

You talk apologetic rubbish.

[naomi24]

Oooo .... a well structured argument, Khandro. As I said, do your homework. :o)

[Khandro]

naomi; When I want lessons on the history of the USSR, I'll let you know, but don't hold your breath. If you wish to do yourself the disservice of denying the holocaust which took place, that's up to you and your conscience, but you do a disservice to the thousands who were killed resisting atheism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USSR_anti-religious_campaign_(1928%E2%80%9341)

[atalanta]

I have made a profound study of the history of Soviet/Socialist institutions in the USSR following the Bolshevik revolution. The facts are that the successful Bolsheviks at first decided, from political ( Marxist) convictions to do away with the church, but before long discovered that it was more useful ( especially in time of war) for religion to be controlled and used as a tool by the Communists. Communism could not control people's "souls" and feelings, but religious beliefs could. This move, to permit the church to survive but under the close eye of the communist party, was a ploy of breathtaking cynicism, but the churches were only too grateful to be allowed to continue. Thus their support for communism, however, hypocritical, became their survival mechanism.

[Khandro]

atalanta; Did your 'profound study' somehow manage to by-pass the mass executions? Which crackpot left wing apologist historian have you been reading?

[Khandro]

"The communists seized power in October 1917 declaring a Soviet government. The new regime faced the hostility of conservative and bourgeois forces, including liberals, royalists and the Russian Orthodox Church. The Church had stated its opposition to the atheism and revolutionary nature of the Communists and threw its support behind the right-wing “White Army,” a coalition of anti-communist forces that declared war on the new state.
The victorious communists viewed the church as a subversive, counter-revolutionary organization, and closed many churches. According to the Library of Congress, after Stalin’s rise to power, persecution against Orthodox Christians escalated to a great extent. Many more churches were closed and many clergy were arrested and executed or sent to forced-labor camps known as gulags. 50,000 churches existed in pre-revolutionary Russia, but only 500 were still open by 1939."

That of course, deals only with Christians, a little further profound study into the fate of Jews, Muslims and Buddhists would reveal an exponential rise in in numbers these appalling figures.

[jomifl]

Khandro, you view of history is so jaundiced by your irrational hatred of atheism (of which you appear not have the least comprehension)that your arguments become more ludicrous as the 'debate' continues. If your reasoning that atheism was the cause of the deaths of millions in Russia is to be accepted as valid then you have to explain why more deaths have been caused by theocratic rulers.

[jomifl]

/The victorious communists viewed the church as a subversive, counter-revolutionary organization/
So you agree with me ..it has nothing to do with atheism. They just didn't want competition for the minds of the proletariat.

[Clanad]

Numerous footnoted articles, such as this:

http://victimsofcommunism.org/the-war-on-religion/

Seem to support Khando's position clearly...