Society And Religion

[Khandro]

The French writer and intellectual, Michel Houellbecq, has always maintained that no society can survive without religion, do you agree?

[jomifl]

Spain impoverished itself fighting wars all over europe in support of the catholic church. Its economy still hasn't recovered.

[Khandro]

No one is suggesting that communism collapsed purely because of a lack of religion, but the regime was an attempt to demonstrate something it was unable in the end to deliver, a "workers paradise". You know the story.

However, it is no coincidence that as it died, religion returned and continues to do so, just as it does in China too. To paraphrase:
You can take the people out of religion, but you can't take religion out of the people!

jomifl; Nonsense! Philosophies do not have priests, monks, temples and shrines.

[jomifl]

/Whatever the views of rural French it won't necessarily save them from being swamped by Islamification (according to this novel)./
The rural French are pretty effective at direct action. Blocking motorways and harbours and burning lorries with nobody arrested.

[jomifl]

He may be a writer, film maker and poet, but whether or not he is an 'intellectual' is open to question. Don't 'intellectuals' have to have demonstrated their 'intellect'?

[Khandro]

jomifl; If you read the interview you will see he says he isn't an intellectual, but he is, and every educated Frenchperson knows it.

[jomifl]

Yes Khandro, and they are all 'intellectuals' too. They also have the best cuisine in the world (if you like creamy sauces), The best wine(if you ignore the rest of the world), the best dress sense (if you ignore the Italians) and the best sense of style (if you ignore the Spanish).

[jim360]

Has there ever really been a fair test of the theory that a society couldn't survive without religion? I'm not sure there has been. Communist regimes certainly don't provide such a test.

At any rate, the key features of religions that might be important to the survival of society are not really essential parts of religion either. A common purpose, some community spirit, etc etc. (Perhaps also, distrust of anyone who doesn't conform to this commonality?)

[jomifl]

/jomifl; Nonsense! Philosophies do not have priests, monks, temples and shrines./
or deities,

[naomi24]

Jim, //Has there ever really been a fair test of the theory that a society couldn't survive without religion? I'm not sure there has been.//

I agree, and that’s precisely what I was saying at 22:34 Sun 20th Mar.

Khandro, // it is no coincidence that as it died, religion returned…//

Has it occurred to you that the reason could be that in one way or another some people can’t function without other people telling them how to?

[jomifl]

As I have mentioned before, percentage of believers in a country is inversely related to standard of living, I.Q. , educational achievement and longevity.
Which is cause and which is effect is another question.

[Khandro]

naomi; //Has it occurred to you that the reason could be that in one way or another some people can’t function without other people telling them how to?//

In my estimation of religion nobody is telling[i anyone how to behave at all.
In each religion, there is though a teacher offering guidance if you seek it.

in Taoism, it is the Tao Te ching of Lao Tzu, indicating a way of living and conducting oneself. Similarly Confucius for Confucianism, Jesus for Christianity and Buddha for Buddhism. Like all forms of teaching whether you want to listen is entirely up to you.

I think anyone who believes they can as a lone individual, start from scratch and find a [i]way] superior to the above teachers, is either a truly enlightened being or a disillusioned fool.

[jomifl]

/In my estimation of religion nobody is telling[i anyone how to behave at all. /
so if you don't take advice you go to hell.

[jomifl]

/I think anyone who believes they can as a lone individual, start from scratch and find a [i]way] superior to the above teachers, is either a truly enlightened being or a disillusioned fool./
But we don't start from scratch do we? we see all the mistakes made by everyone else and try to avoid them by thinking for ourselves.

[naomi24]

Khandro, of course religion tells people how to behave. Many of its adherents are scared witless by the perceived penalties it imposes for dissention.

//In each religion, there is though a teacher offering guidance//

… and quite frankly some of those guides need to seriously examine their consciences – see my previous paragraph. That said, it doesn’t follow that religion is the only guide . How do you think the rest of us manage?

[Khandro]

naomi;// How do you think the rest of us manage?// God knows!

Perhaps you could share it with us, you might get some followers and start a new religion. Naomism? :0)

[naomi24]

Khandro, religion can be compared to smoking in a way. Once they’ve kicked the habit, ex-smokers realise that they never really needed the crutch at all and can manage perfectly well without it.

[Khandro]

I packed it in 20 years ago, but I still fancy one now and then. :0)

[naomi24]

... but then common sense kicks in. ;o)

[agchristie]

Khandro > you might get some followers and start a new religion. Naomism? :0)

Naomism? No, that's a Misnoma!

[taichiperson]

Isn't France a secular state??