Film, Media & TV2 mins ago
Society And Religion
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The French writer and intellectual, Michel Houellbecq, has always maintained that no society can survive without religion, do you agree?
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@wildwood
I wonder what species we were, 5mY ago? I'll have to google it.
The counter-argument to your point would involve thrashing out what we mean by society and to debate if a tribal setup counts, depending if it's every brute for themselves or if genuine cooperation occurs, even before language (meerkats get along among a group, mutual protection of many eyes and noses and simple vocalisations).
Furthermore, it could be argued that tribes are small in number but those with a belief system grow into nations. (In fact, that is a mere observation, lacking the benefit of watching history play out and seeing if faith really did foster population growth. It is more likely to be farming which did that and religion became necessary to settle arguments and keep public order).
I wonder what species we were, 5mY ago? I'll have to google it.
The counter-argument to your point would involve thrashing out what we mean by society and to debate if a tribal setup counts, depending if it's every brute for themselves or if genuine cooperation occurs, even before language (meerkats get along among a group, mutual protection of many eyes and noses and simple vocalisations).
Furthermore, it could be argued that tribes are small in number but those with a belief system grow into nations. (In fact, that is a mere observation, lacking the benefit of watching history play out and seeing if faith really did foster population growth. It is more likely to be farming which did that and religion became necessary to settle arguments and keep public order).
Russia and China had Communism as an alternative philosophy to what we would describe as a religion. Over centuries, nearly every society, whether primitive or civilised, has been greatly influenced by religion in determining its social rules.
As well as the traditional books as a source of alternative thought, modern societies have TV and the social media. Formal religion struggles when it is either irrelevant or seen to be in conflict with the prevailing values and interests of most members of a society.
As well as the traditional books as a source of alternative thought, modern societies have TV and the social media. Formal religion struggles when it is either irrelevant or seen to be in conflict with the prevailing values and interests of most members of a society.
@BillSuth
I can see where you're coming from but I see it as a bit of a chicken and egg situation. Religion may have co-opted societal rules as a way to make itself credible, acceptable and valuable.
For instance, animals do not know what incest is. We do and we codified avoidance of it into religious works. Do we really think that it persisted until Judaism (say) began? If someone insists on saying yes, we have to scour the Torah and back-calculate when that rule was laid down. Was it before or after the long lines of D begat E, E begat F etc??
I can see where you're coming from but I see it as a bit of a chicken and egg situation. Religion may have co-opted societal rules as a way to make itself credible, acceptable and valuable.
For instance, animals do not know what incest is. We do and we codified avoidance of it into religious works. Do we really think that it persisted until Judaism (say) began? If someone insists on saying yes, we have to scour the Torah and back-calculate when that rule was laid down. Was it before or after the long lines of D begat E, E begat F etc??
@ Hypognosis
Chicken and egg is a fair point. Many religions adopted rules, perhaps mostly taboos, to address contemporary issues and that creates the problem of credibility when measured against criteria such as eternal truths, if beliefs include what might be dismissed as (now) obsolete "fixes".
There is also the traditional criticism of religion for anthropocentric obsession, especially in view of today's cosmological awareness. This applies not only to worshippers of sun-gods but to pre-Galilean Christianity.
On the same point of sujectivity, Judeo-Christian tradition has the difficult notion of a chosen race at its core. It was therefore understandable that Christ would adopt the prevailing Judaic culture of the society into which he (or "He", if you prefer) was born.
... But not without question or challenge, of course. There is the paradox that the Judaic leaders regarded him as a revisionist subversive: but in many ways he was a reactionary, frequently rebuking them for deviating from traditions and above all for hypocrisy.
Chicken and egg is a fair point. Many religions adopted rules, perhaps mostly taboos, to address contemporary issues and that creates the problem of credibility when measured against criteria such as eternal truths, if beliefs include what might be dismissed as (now) obsolete "fixes".
There is also the traditional criticism of religion for anthropocentric obsession, especially in view of today's cosmological awareness. This applies not only to worshippers of sun-gods but to pre-Galilean Christianity.
On the same point of sujectivity, Judeo-Christian tradition has the difficult notion of a chosen race at its core. It was therefore understandable that Christ would adopt the prevailing Judaic culture of the society into which he (or "He", if you prefer) was born.
... But not without question or challenge, of course. There is the paradox that the Judaic leaders regarded him as a revisionist subversive: but in many ways he was a reactionary, frequently rebuking them for deviating from traditions and above all for hypocrisy.
Khandro, //please give an example of a society which has survived for long without religion? I shall answer for you; you can't! //
Societies that are discouraged from religious practice don’t collapse through the absence of religion – they collapse because the political philosophy of the governing regime is grossly flawed. Communist regimes don’t disintegrate for want of religion- they fail because Communism is an impossibly flawed ideal that determines to suppress the fundamental aspirations of human nature. People who have experienced life under such regimes don’t ultimately reject them in favour of religion – they reject them in favour of freedom.
By the way, did your man actually say that “no society can survive without religion” – or did you make that up?
Societies that are discouraged from religious practice don’t collapse through the absence of religion – they collapse because the political philosophy of the governing regime is grossly flawed. Communist regimes don’t disintegrate for want of religion- they fail because Communism is an impossibly flawed ideal that determines to suppress the fundamental aspirations of human nature. People who have experienced life under such regimes don’t ultimately reject them in favour of religion – they reject them in favour of freedom.
By the way, did your man actually say that “no society can survive without religion” – or did you make that up?
naomi; Yes he said it, you'll find it here;
http://
atalanta; //Most Chinese seem to manage alright without religion//
Taoism, Confucianism, Buddhism, all flourishing once again, you should have watched the excellent recent BBC 2 series "The Story of China" by Michael Wood.
http://
atalanta; //Most Chinese seem to manage alright without religion//
Taoism, Confucianism, Buddhism, all flourishing once again, you should have watched the excellent recent BBC 2 series "The Story of China" by Michael Wood.
Its about a third of the way through (it's a good interview, would like to hear what you think)
"This is not what I have observed, although in North and South America, Islam has benefited less than the evangelicals. This is not a French phenomenon, it’s almost global. I don’t know about Asia, but the case of Africa is interesting because there you have the two great religious powers on the rise—evangelical Christianity and Islam. I remain in many ways a Comtean, and I don’t believe that a society can survive without religion."
I confess I didn't know before what a "Comtean" was - (August Comte)
"This is not what I have observed, although in North and South America, Islam has benefited less than the evangelicals. This is not a French phenomenon, it’s almost global. I don’t know about Asia, but the case of Africa is interesting because there you have the two great religious powers on the rise—evangelical Christianity and Islam. I remain in many ways a Comtean, and I don’t believe that a society can survive without religion."
I confess I didn't know before what a "Comtean" was - (August Comte)
Anyone can claim anything but it is worthless without an argument to back the claim.
The fact that religion has been pervasive in all known societies does not constitute an argument that it is impossible to survive without it.
There is plenty of evidence that religion is a waste of resources that societies could use productively.
The fact that religion has been pervasive in all known societies does not constitute an argument that it is impossible to survive without it.
There is plenty of evidence that religion is a waste of resources that societies could use productively.
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