Without Christianity....

[Khandro]

........ would we have western values? Even Richard Dawkins appears to acknowledge this debt. Is his atheistic stance softening? I see him now referred to as an 'agnostic' (as well as a secularist and humanist).
Recently, sitting in Winchester Cathedral listening to the peal of the bells he tweeted; 'So much nicer than the aggressive-sounding "Allahu Akhbar", or is that just my cultural upbringing?'
Does this not show him as someone brought up in a Christian civilization which he can not eschew, and if he, the guru of several ABers cannot, can they?

[Khandro]

Reading these first 20 posts, I see some criticism of medieval Christianity (to which I concur) but am I right in thinking that there is no denial that the ethos of Europe and its 'western values' are under serious threat?
Who is going to say that this is untrue or irrelevant?

[naomi24]

Bainbrig, in saluting Calicogirl's comment in order to denigrate others you have poked yourself in the eye. If you knew your history you would be aware that the Christianity of the Western world is rather different from the original.

[naomi24]

Khandro, will you please answer my question? Who said Richard Dawkins is an agnostic?

[andres]

Without Christianity we would probably be on our knees five times a day praying.

[Khandro]

//will you please answer my question? Who said Richard Dawkins is an agnostic?//

n. Certainly. He himself could not entirely deny the existence of God in a debate with Rowan Williams at Oxford University, which cannot make him a 100% denier, so what is he?
Tom Holland has just said so as I have recently read.
With your having contributed to making him a millionaire, I can appreciate your dismay and refusal to accept this.

[naomi24]

Haha! No dismay here. Sneaky Khandro - but no more than I expected. No one can categorically deny that a god exists - but that doesn't make them agnostic. Try harder to be rather more honest next time.

[bainbrig]

There you go, Calico (“ If you knew your history you would be aware that the Christianity of the Western world is rather different from the original.”)

They even try and deny their origins (and divinity!)

BillB

[naomi24]

Bainbrig, western culture resulting from Christianity – which is what this thread is about - was not imported from the Middle East. The founder of Christianity - and contrary to popular belief, he was not a Jew called Jesus but a Jewish citizen of Rome - fashioned his scheme to appeal to the Gentile psyche – and if you don’t know what Gentile means, or its derivation look it up. Christianity’s subsequent and far more powerful champion (another citizen of Rome) without whom Christianity would arguably have died a death, did the rest. Hence the original has undergone something of a metamorphosis since its beginnings and, as humorous as you may find it, it’s an absolute nonsense to say that the Christian culture was imported from the Middle East.

Incidentally, your reference to ‘they’ in your criticism of my post is curious. I am not Christian and I regard nothing as ‘divine’.

[Old_Geezer]

Categorically denying that a god exists is what atheism is all about. Otherwise it would be no different from agnosticism. IMO many who claim to be atheist are just in denial of their agnosticism.

[spathiphyllum]

Christianity has shaped western society. That's a fact. My answer, No.

Think about how much British culture is christian.

[naomi24]

OG, // Categorically denying that a god exists is what atheism is all about.//

No. Atheism is simply an absence of belief. Agnosticism (which in short actually means the nature of god is unknown and unknowable) doesn’t come into it.

[Old_Geezer]

Absence of belief in the existence of god or gods is the same as disbelieving in them. i.e. denying they exist. That agnostics consider the possibility of a god or gods is because they realise the issue can't be proven one way or the other, doesn't affect the state of acceptance of the possibility of a god or gods. But I understand that you are in denial. That's ok.

[naomi24]

OG, I’m not in denial. I’m realistic. Why is it so difficult for believers to understand that others don’t share their belief? You have the wrong end of the stick entirely and your understanding of agnosticism is erroneous. Atheists are not Agnostic. Atheists see no evidence for the existence of a supernatural power and therefore have no reason to believe that such an entity exists. It is therefore inaccurate to claim otherwise. Given verifiable evidence to the contrary they would either become believers or Agnostics.

[Khandro]

Dawkins does not now categorically deny the possible existence of God (or a higher power) so I fail to see how he is fully an atheist, and those who search for a champion for their absolute disbelief and support for their prejudices should seek elsewhere, (try Karl Marx).

... and as quoted in the OP, he most certainly accepts the debt that our modern western culture owes to the Christian tradition, only a fool would not accept that.

[Quizmonster]

The azan or Muslim call to prayer is, effectively, a ‘song’. Consequently, its beauty or otherwise is an aspect of the muezzin’s ability to sing! It may, as claimed, sometimes be merely wailing, but that is far from a universal truth.
Having lived in various parts of the Middle East for quite a few years in the past, I have heard the azan thousands of times and it could, indeed, be very beautiful, even moving for me, despite my atheism.
Re Dawkins’ atheism or otherwise, he himself claimed that he knew exactly what was required for him to acknowledge the existence of God and, if that became available, he would accept it at once. Evidence!
Since that is not forthcoming, I cannot imagine he has in any way altered his position.

[naomi24]

Khandro, //Dawkins does not now categorically deny the possible existence of God //

He never did. That is your delusion.

[Peter Pedant]

// Who said Richard Dawkins is an agnostic?//

himself I think - he certainly is not Roman, and I think he says that there is no proof either way, which would put him as an agostic . Being metaphysical, physical proof is a bit of a non-starter

agnostic - a - gignosko - doesnt know
atheist - a theos - there is no God

yeah yeah I know Nigh has her own definition - but hey this is AB so she is free to say what she likes. The only outcome likely is confusion

as Bishop Butler once said - let us call a thing a thing and not another thing [deep thought there boys and girls!]

[naomi24]

PP. //agnostic - doesnt know//

Incorrect. That my posts on this subject confuse you doesn’t surprise me. Deeper thought required.

[Peter Pedant]

//Having lived in various parts of the Middle East for quite a few years in the past.... The azan effectively, a ‘song’. //

they dont use "يغنى" ( aghny = song) for it do they? it is more a chant which is different and you learn in a different context ( islamic school)

having lived for less time in the Middle east, I look on the sunset asan as "o god time to come out of your houses and start shooting the christians"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-46090104

[Peter Pedant]

Hi Ni !

dont read me, read a dictionary !
"a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God."

|I know you dont do ancient forrin - the above proves that, but it really does come from a + gignosko ( not+know).
I er wouldnt expect you to know that !