Self Righteous Religionists, Just Gotta Love Em Eh?

[nailit]

My sons G/F is pregnant.
Her Uncle is a pastor.
He's just stated that the baby (my grandson) is a product of sin.
You just got to love these people of faith havnt you?

Dick!!

[Theland]

Then you are unlike Dawkins who does not recognise good or evil, insofar as the universe is completely cold and indifferent to such matters.
But you claim we are moral beings?
So for you, where does that morality come from? If you recognise evil, you must recognise good. How so if you don't believe in objective morality? And if you do, what is the moral authority on which you base your statements?
Is there a philosopher or school of thought that is congruent to yours, or at least comes close?
You appear at times to cling to the god of rationalism, yet until you can claim definitively a deterministic cosmos, your rationalism sounds a bit hollow, especially so when reason itself is a construct of consciousness, something else that is hardly understood.
Anyway, thank you for taking the time and the trouble to post.

[naomi24]

Theland, it’s clearly beyond your capabilities to respond to me in a civil manner but I would like an answer to my question please. I’d hate to think you were ducking again.

[waterboatman]

Someone needs to reminding him that people were having babies long before any kind of religion was invented.

[Theland]

Clarify Naomi?
Certainly.
I recognise evil.
Dawkins doesn't. (Cold indifferent universe ........)
So anybody recognising evil should be able to say by what moral standard is something evil.
There.

[mibn2cweus]

Morality arises as a consequence of having options and the need to choose amongst them based on a determination of which is the better path to follow. What is at stake is our survival and well-being. Recognising that the human mind is fallible, it is not necessarily immoral to be wrong but it is immoral not to acknowledge the responsibility inherent in our actions and the need to acquire the knowledge necessary to determine and do what is right.

Just as we are not born with the knowledge required to determine right from wrong, let alone an understanding of what those concepts mean, nor are we born with the means to make such determinations, the process of reason. Most of us have within us an inherent capacity to reason. As adults, the responsibility to develop that capacity, essential to our survival and well-being, and pass it on to others, especially our own children, falls on us.

No one can do another’s thinking for them. That is the fundamental choice we all must make for ourselves. If what I have submitted here gives you something to think about than I have in some respect achieved what I set out to do. I would never ask nor hope anyone to believe anything they cannot or do not understand for themselves.

[Theland]

The process of reason tells me that by observation, I live in a universe of cause and effect.
Therefore, by reason, I can determine that there ultimately must have been a first cause, either that or infinite regression.
I cannot think or reason a third option.

[mibn2cweus]

Cause implies the existence of that within which it takes place and upon which it acts. Cause cannot exist in isolation from that which it effects. Cause is a property of the universe, not the cause of that apart from which it does not exist. Time itself is meaningless removed from that which it measures.

[naomi24]

Richard Dawkins is right. The universe is indifferent to good and evil. Good and evil aren’t ‘entities’. To bestow praise where it’s unwarranted is weakening; to deny culpability, an abdication of personal responsibility.

[Theland]

MIBs I disagree entirely.
You say cause is a property of the universe and has an implication on which it acts.
That suggests that which is effected is its own cause.
A universe from nothing?
Nothing.
Nothing.
Nothing.
............
And then what?
And why?

[Theland]

Dawkins is wrong Naomi.
If he was right we could never condemn the evil we confront every day, and in our recent memories, the Holocaust.

[pixie374]

Theland, the universe itself is inanimate, of course it is cold and indifferent. Morals come from humans, animals... beings that can think and feel. I don't see what you are trying to claim about someone can't be moral, if they are also rational?

[pixie374]

//So MIBs, you don't recognise the most appalling evils when confronted by them?//

Ignoring the so-rule, where on earth has that come from?

[andy-hughes]

pixie - // //So MIBs, you don't recognise the most appalling evils when confronted by them?//

Ignoring the so-rule, where on earth has that come from? //

Don't ignore the So Rule - that's a text-book example of it right there!!

[naomi24]

//Dawkins is wrong Naomi.
If he was right we could never condemn the evil we confront every day, and in our recent memories, the Holocaust. //

I could. Why couldn't you?

[Theland]

Yes Naomi, we can condemn evil, because we have within us a deep seated moral code.
In most of us it is literally part of our DNA.
But try justifying it philosophically. Go on. Try.


And the So rule?
What the heck is that all about, apart from giving Andy an opportunity to show off?

[naomi24]

//In most of us //

What happened to the rest of us? Why have they been sold short?

[pixie374]

I know, Andy. I acknowledged it, because it might have distracted him from answering the actual question. Too late now x
Theland, your post in no way followed from mibs'. Let alone 'so...'. You pretty much suggested he couldn't recognise evil in front of him? That's harsh, and not something that has come across from his posts.

[Theland]

All I know is that there are many people whose evil is apparent and dominates their character.
But you are now degrading any discussion to even lower levels and being quite silly.

[pixie374]

Am I? I'm responding to a quote from you.
If there had never been any religion, do you think humans would never had any morals?

[naomi24]

Don't be rude, Theland. I've asked you a reasonable question. If, as you say, we have within us a deep seated moral code, why did God miss some people out? You can't have it both ways. God either did it or he didn't - or perhaps we just make up our own minds, eh?