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'Converts' To Christianity - Continued
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A discussion instigated by Khandro in 'News' has turned into a debate on religion but is now almost off the front page. If anyone is interested in pursuing this further, since this is a more appropriate place to continue the discussion, a link to the original is here.
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Betsy, //It was interesting to hear Masha Gessen arguing that, as a gay Jewish woman, she felt more of an existential threat from fundamentalist Christians than from fundamentalist Muslims.//
Did she say why?
//Some commentators have argued that the verse was revealed to Muhammad following the battle of Mu'tah and was a response to Byzantine aggression.//
Yes, some commentators do say that - it's a diversionary tactic. The truth doesn't go down too well among apologists.
//I'm not necessarily arguing that this lets Islam off the hook altogether - just that the Quran should be read in its historical context//
I'm not sure what you mean. What historical context? The book, to Muslims, is a living guide. They don't regard any of it as being past its sell by date.
Incidentally, I don't believe any of it was 'revealed' to Mohammed. It took him about 23 years to write - and despite claims to the contrary, it has been altered over time. You might be interested in researching the Satanic Verses - which appear to have been a good idea at the time - but subsequently mysteriously disappeared.
Did she say why?
//Some commentators have argued that the verse was revealed to Muhammad following the battle of Mu'tah and was a response to Byzantine aggression.//
Yes, some commentators do say that - it's a diversionary tactic. The truth doesn't go down too well among apologists.
//I'm not necessarily arguing that this lets Islam off the hook altogether - just that the Quran should be read in its historical context//
I'm not sure what you mean. What historical context? The book, to Muslims, is a living guide. They don't regard any of it as being past its sell by date.
Incidentally, I don't believe any of it was 'revealed' to Mohammed. It took him about 23 years to write - and despite claims to the contrary, it has been altered over time. You might be interested in researching the Satanic Verses - which appear to have been a good idea at the time - but subsequently mysteriously disappeared.
// Did she say why? //
Because they have the power and the guns! (She is now resident in the USA after leaving Russia to avoid persecution.)
// Yes, some commentators do say that - it's a diversionary tactic. The truth doesn't go down too well among apologists. //
Are you saying that these verses were *not* written after the battle of Mu'tah and therefore should *not* be seen in its context? If so, do you have anything to support this?
// I'm not sure what you mean. What historical context? //
I was referring to the Mu'tah example above.
// Incidentally, I don't believe any of it was 'revealed' to Mohammed. //
Neither do I. Like you, I'm just trying to get at the truth. Don't get me wrong, in no way am I an apologist for Islam, and I completely and unequivocally condemn the atrocities committed in its name. I see many attacks here against Islam, when what is actually being attacked is Islamism, by which I mean intolerance of unbelievers and advocation of violence towards all who disagree. The question is whether Islam and Islamism are one and the same.
Because they have the power and the guns! (She is now resident in the USA after leaving Russia to avoid persecution.)
// Yes, some commentators do say that - it's a diversionary tactic. The truth doesn't go down too well among apologists. //
Are you saying that these verses were *not* written after the battle of Mu'tah and therefore should *not* be seen in its context? If so, do you have anything to support this?
// I'm not sure what you mean. What historical context? //
I was referring to the Mu'tah example above.
// Incidentally, I don't believe any of it was 'revealed' to Mohammed. //
Neither do I. Like you, I'm just trying to get at the truth. Don't get me wrong, in no way am I an apologist for Islam, and I completely and unequivocally condemn the atrocities committed in its name. I see many attacks here against Islam, when what is actually being attacked is Islamism, by which I mean intolerance of unbelievers and advocation of violence towards all who disagree. The question is whether Islam and Islamism are one and the same.
Betsy, what book intended as guidance for the future gives instructions on how to fight a battle already fought?
Masha Gessen is not just a gay Jewish woman - she’s a very controversial journalist - and that, I think, is why she left Russia. She’s not in greater danger from Christian fundamentalists than she is from Islamists - and I’d be willing to bet she knows that.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at with the Islam/Islamism question. Many so called ‘moderate’ Muslims are highly offended by being referred to as ‘moderate’. They feel it denigrates and undermines the strength of their conviction.
Masha Gessen is not just a gay Jewish woman - she’s a very controversial journalist - and that, I think, is why she left Russia. She’s not in greater danger from Christian fundamentalists than she is from Islamists - and I’d be willing to bet she knows that.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at with the Islam/Islamism question. Many so called ‘moderate’ Muslims are highly offended by being referred to as ‘moderate’. They feel it denigrates and undermines the strength of their conviction.
Naomi, ignoring previous neighbours or friends,I've worked with Muslims for around 30 years daily. Some, just once, some for a long time, and some have become friends.
Why are you suggesting that they all take it seriously? When the biggest problem for young Muslims, is that they are too "westernised" according to their families, and they change when they move out? Doesn't that suggest, that actually.... they are not all taking it seriously? So far, I haven't yet met one that does. And there must literally be over 100. They can't all be unusual, surely??
Why are you suggesting that they all take it seriously? When the biggest problem for young Muslims, is that they are too "westernised" according to their families, and they change when they move out? Doesn't that suggest, that actually.... they are not all taking it seriously? So far, I haven't yet met one that does. And there must literally be over 100. They can't all be unusual, surely??
// Betsy, what book intended as guidance for the future gives instructions on how to fight a battle already fought? //
I was setting the verse in its historical context, CE629-630 during a period of conflict with the Byzantine empire - there were other, later battles.
Re Masha Gessen, here's the relevant link:
https:/
The part where she discusses the threat from far-right Christians starts about 33 minutes in.
// Many so called ‘moderate’ Muslims are highly offended by being referred to as ‘moderate’//
Indeed, and I didn't actually use that word. But the fact that there is so much material written by what you would call 'apologists' would indicate that there are many Quran-believing Muslims who do *not* advocate violence towards unbelievers.
I was setting the verse in its historical context, CE629-630 during a period of conflict with the Byzantine empire - there were other, later battles.
Re Masha Gessen, here's the relevant link:
https:/
The part where she discusses the threat from far-right Christians starts about 33 minutes in.
// Many so called ‘moderate’ Muslims are highly offended by being referred to as ‘moderate’//
Indeed, and I didn't actually use that word. But the fact that there is so much material written by what you would call 'apologists' would indicate that there are many Quran-believing Muslims who do *not* advocate violence towards unbelievers.
Betsy, your last half dozen or so lines makes no sense. Reading many apologists one could be forgiven for thinking no Muslim ever committed an act of terrorism.
Masha Gessen is a politically motivated woman and should be acknowledged as such.
As for terrorist support, I provided a link in the other thread that gives some indication of numbers.
Quite frankly I’m at a loss to know where you’re coming from or where you’re going to here.
Masha Gessen is a politically motivated woman and should be acknowledged as such.
As for terrorist support, I provided a link in the other thread that gives some indication of numbers.
Quite frankly I’m at a loss to know where you’re coming from or where you’re going to here.
Naomi,
Reading your last post, I can see you are showing admirable restraint. I could be wrong, but I get the feeling you are itching to say something like "Betsy, *please* try to understand before one of us dies", rather like Basil Fawlty talking to Manuel.
// Quite frankly I’m at a loss to know where you’re coming from or where you’re going to here. //
That may be because I'm trying to approach the subject of Islam objectively, as far as possible, rather than argue from a particular standpoint. AB is full of posts about some nutcase who has committed an atrocity in the name of Islam, which are intended to prove that Islam, as Harris puts it, is 'the mother lode of bad ideas'. Such a bold claim should not be taken lightly, and deserves closer scrutiny.
I'm happy to leave it there, if you are. I've enjoyed the tussle, and look forward to more :-).
Reading your last post, I can see you are showing admirable restraint. I could be wrong, but I get the feeling you are itching to say something like "Betsy, *please* try to understand before one of us dies", rather like Basil Fawlty talking to Manuel.
// Quite frankly I’m at a loss to know where you’re coming from or where you’re going to here. //
That may be because I'm trying to approach the subject of Islam objectively, as far as possible, rather than argue from a particular standpoint. AB is full of posts about some nutcase who has committed an atrocity in the name of Islam, which are intended to prove that Islam, as Harris puts it, is 'the mother lode of bad ideas'. Such a bold claim should not be taken lightly, and deserves closer scrutiny.
I'm happy to leave it there, if you are. I've enjoyed the tussle, and look forward to more :-).
naomi; I remembered I HAVE read that perceptive Winston Churchill quote, or part of it, that was what got Paul Weston arrested for reading it out in public back in 2014 !!!
https:/
HTB, Don't go away :0)
https:/
HTB, Don't go away :0)
I say what I mean, Betsy, and if I was itching to say something I would say it. You say you’re trying to approach the subject objectively but that isn't coming across in your posts, the tone of which has changed significantly since your first. You appear to tend towards overlooking the less savoury and to ignore rebuttal or criticism even when supported by rational argument, and having introduced Masha Gessen into the discussion simply as a gay Jewish woman, I suspect you are better acquainted with the subject than you're willing to admit.
It's been posted here before, Khandro, so I'm not surprised you've read it.
It's been posted here before, Khandro, so I'm not surprised you've read it.
Naomi,
// You say you’re trying to approach the subject objectively but that isn't coming across in your posts //
I said I was trying, I didn't say I had succeeded - clearly I haven't!
// You appear to tend towards overlooking the less savoury and to ignore rebuttal or criticism even when supported by rational argument, //
If I've done so, it has not been deliberate. I'll try again, looking at 9:5, the 'sword verse', a verse so controversial it has its own Wikipedia page. It would be quite reasonable to ask, "what part of 'kill the idolaters wherever you find them' do you not understand?" Well, 'idolaters' for a start. (Or 'pagans', or 'polytheists', depending on which translation you use.) The original Arabic word is 'mushrikun', and there is some debate as to whether this includes Jews and Christians or not. Furthermore, if we take the verse in its full context, it's talking about a specific group of mushrikun who had broken a peace treaty. Does this verse, therefore, give carte blanche to Muslims to slaughter all non-Muslims indiscriminately? I don't think it does. And nor, thankfully, do most Muslims - does this make them heretics?
Let's face it, people on AB can't even agree the meaning of a sentence on the side of a bus; trying to assign an unambiguous meaning to the Quran (or Koran, not sure which to use) is like nailing jelly to the wall. I don't feel things are as black and white as you think.
// having introduced Masha Gessen into the discussion simply as a gay Jewish woman, I suspect you are better acquainted with the subject than you're willing to admit. //
Those were Gessen's own words, not mine. I have no hidden agenda.
// You say you’re trying to approach the subject objectively but that isn't coming across in your posts //
I said I was trying, I didn't say I had succeeded - clearly I haven't!
// You appear to tend towards overlooking the less savoury and to ignore rebuttal or criticism even when supported by rational argument, //
If I've done so, it has not been deliberate. I'll try again, looking at 9:5, the 'sword verse', a verse so controversial it has its own Wikipedia page. It would be quite reasonable to ask, "what part of 'kill the idolaters wherever you find them' do you not understand?" Well, 'idolaters' for a start. (Or 'pagans', or 'polytheists', depending on which translation you use.) The original Arabic word is 'mushrikun', and there is some debate as to whether this includes Jews and Christians or not. Furthermore, if we take the verse in its full context, it's talking about a specific group of mushrikun who had broken a peace treaty. Does this verse, therefore, give carte blanche to Muslims to slaughter all non-Muslims indiscriminately? I don't think it does. And nor, thankfully, do most Muslims - does this make them heretics?
Let's face it, people on AB can't even agree the meaning of a sentence on the side of a bus; trying to assign an unambiguous meaning to the Quran (or Koran, not sure which to use) is like nailing jelly to the wall. I don't feel things are as black and white as you think.
// having introduced Masha Gessen into the discussion simply as a gay Jewish woman, I suspect you are better acquainted with the subject than you're willing to admit. //
Those were Gessen's own words, not mine. I have no hidden agenda.
naomi - // Betsy, I can only suggest you read the Koran and then reach your conclusions. //
Of course Besty, naomi knows who has and who has not read the Koran on here.
I think she sneaks into our bedrooms at night and looks at what we are reading before we go to sleep - it's the only explanation I can think of for her exceptional ability.
Of course Besty, naomi knows who has and who has not read the Koran on here.
I think she sneaks into our bedrooms at night and looks at what we are reading before we go to sleep - it's the only explanation I can think of for her exceptional ability.
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