I Think I've Found P Ps True...
Society & Culture2 mins ago
Out of Body Experiences
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Have you ever had an out-of-body experience, and if so, can you describe it , and how do you think it happened?
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Hi Theland, I've never said I don't believe in a spiritual dimension - I do - but I don't think it has anything to do with your god because I believe he exists only in the imaginations of his followers. I think life, nature and the universe are much, much bigger than a god who restricts himself to one minor planet, and possesses personal qualities similar to those of the worst of men - jealousy, power, anger, cruelty, egotism and the urge to control completely - and to seek revenge. I do think we have a soul that continues to exist after we die, but I don't believe it's only those that toe your god's line that live on - I believe everyone's soul survives death, regardless of the religion, nationality, colour or creed of its owner.
I'm sceptical about psychics too, and I believe most of them are frauds (especially those at the end of the pier!), but it has been proven to me that some are not - and I have no doubt of that. These people, I believe, have a special ability, but we probably all have that ability within us - we just haven't learnt to use that part of the brain that they're able to use.
All of this is nothing to do with faith - it's just a natural part of life, which hopefully, some day, science will know more about.
I'm sceptical about psychics too, and I believe most of them are frauds (especially those at the end of the pier!), but it has been proven to me that some are not - and I have no doubt of that. These people, I believe, have a special ability, but we probably all have that ability within us - we just haven't learnt to use that part of the brain that they're able to use.
All of this is nothing to do with faith - it's just a natural part of life, which hopefully, some day, science will know more about.
naomi, I asked, not to be awkward, but because I am genuinely interested in what makes you think that a particular 'psychic' is accurate. I have always regarded you as one of the more rational people on this site - in contrast to dreamers like Theland and Mani - so I was slightly startled to hear you talking about 'a very good psychic'. Can't you give us a specific example of his/her accuracy? Certainly I am sceptical about all types of alleged 'psychic', but I am willing to listen.
Chakka, That was my reaction as well and I share in your curiosity?
Naomi, I freely acknowledge that my blanket assertions have no more weight that anyone else�s. I am however willing to provide the reasons by which I arrive at those assertions when a genuine interest is demonstrated. I then leave it up to the person asking to determine for themselves if this has any correspondence to their own experience or if they can find a meaningful relationship between what I have offered and their preexisting knowledge and to accept it or reject it on that basis. Your use of derogatory remarks in an attempt to discredit an opinion which is in conflict with your beliefs does nothing to provide support for their validity but instead points a suspicious finger back at your own uncertainty.
It is not so much a matter of whether we are right or wrong as it is of possibly learning something new whether we agree or disagree on a specific issue. I believe most of the people here are willing to accept that they might be wrong if they are given a sufficient reason that will enable them to understand why, at least this is my hope. There is no justification for attempting to stifle anyone�s intellectual growth, our own being no exception. I�ve always managed to do an adequate job of assassinating my own character without depending on the all too generous help of others thank you, although I do find your abilities in this regard quite remarkable ~ <�?
Hey, don�t mind me, its your thread, do whatever the hell you please . . .
Naomi, I freely acknowledge that my blanket assertions have no more weight that anyone else�s. I am however willing to provide the reasons by which I arrive at those assertions when a genuine interest is demonstrated. I then leave it up to the person asking to determine for themselves if this has any correspondence to their own experience or if they can find a meaningful relationship between what I have offered and their preexisting knowledge and to accept it or reject it on that basis. Your use of derogatory remarks in an attempt to discredit an opinion which is in conflict with your beliefs does nothing to provide support for their validity but instead points a suspicious finger back at your own uncertainty.
It is not so much a matter of whether we are right or wrong as it is of possibly learning something new whether we agree or disagree on a specific issue. I believe most of the people here are willing to accept that they might be wrong if they are given a sufficient reason that will enable them to understand why, at least this is my hope. There is no justification for attempting to stifle anyone�s intellectual growth, our own being no exception. I�ve always managed to do an adequate job of assassinating my own character without depending on the all too generous help of others thank you, although I do find your abilities in this regard quite remarkable ~ <�?
Hey, don�t mind me, its your thread, do whatever the hell you please . . .
mibn2cweus - I'm willing to provide reasons too - I'm just not sure people are always that interested in reading them. After all, this is a subject that many dismiss as odd, to say the least. I am so sorry though, if my posts came across as derogatory. My intentions veered more towards the flippant and light-hearted, because as you've said, your comments do come across as blanket assertions, and as such, I gained the impression that you had already decided what you believe and required no further explanation from anyone who believes differently.
Chakka - looks like my role is one of apology tonight. I'm so sorry - I thought you were aiming to enter into some sort of verbal gymnastics based on the use of one odd word. That's the problem with typing words instead of saying them - they often come over the wrong way.
Thanks - I hope I'm both rational and sceptical (sometimes too rational and too sceptical for my own good I think!) - and I take that as a compliment.
Right, you and mibn2cweus - an explanation you want, and an explanation you shall have, of that one person at least.
We went on holiday to a place we'd never been to before, and one night we had dinner at a pub. After dinner we sat having a drink when the manager came along to ask if the meal was satisfactory. We said fine thanks, and then he asked if he could talk to me. 'Odd', I thought, seeing as I was with my husband, but I said ok, and he joined us He began by saying I had 'very strong vibrations', and I laughed and said something like 'well, flattery will get you everywhere!". He said "no, don't laugh, this isn't a joke", and then said he needed to tell me something. I was a bit apprehensive and a little uncomfortable to say the least, but I said 'ok, go ahead'. He said he could see a lady with black hair and gold earrings and said he had the word 'Romany' in his mind. He asked me if I knew what that word meant, and I said 'yes', but didn't elaborate. He then went on to tell me lots of things that meant absolutely nothing to me.
...........next post ........
Thanks - I hope I'm both rational and sceptical (sometimes too rational and too sceptical for my own good I think!) - and I take that as a compliment.
Right, you and mibn2cweus - an explanation you want, and an explanation you shall have, of that one person at least.
We went on holiday to a place we'd never been to before, and one night we had dinner at a pub. After dinner we sat having a drink when the manager came along to ask if the meal was satisfactory. We said fine thanks, and then he asked if he could talk to me. 'Odd', I thought, seeing as I was with my husband, but I said ok, and he joined us He began by saying I had 'very strong vibrations', and I laughed and said something like 'well, flattery will get you everywhere!". He said "no, don't laugh, this isn't a joke", and then said he needed to tell me something. I was a bit apprehensive and a little uncomfortable to say the least, but I said 'ok, go ahead'. He said he could see a lady with black hair and gold earrings and said he had the word 'Romany' in his mind. He asked me if I knew what that word meant, and I said 'yes', but didn't elaborate. He then went on to tell me lots of things that meant absolutely nothing to me.
...........next post ........
continued ..............He spoke of horses in the fields of Surrey, he mentioned names I had never heard of, and he insisted several times that this lady was showing him what he described as 'a china ornament, a fantail and a hand' - they were his exact words Try as we might we could think of nothing at all that matched this description. We knew of no such ornament, and we didn't have a clue about anything he was saying. None of it made any sense at all - apart from the word 'Romany' because my grandmother, who died years before I was born was a Romany, although I didn't tell him that.
When we went home I related the story to my father whose mother was the Romany lady. I told him everything the man had said - the names, the horses in Surrey - everything, and although I didn't have the foggiest idea about any of it, my dad knew exactly what it all meant. Then I came to the bit about the china ornament - the 'fantail and the hand', and that stopped my dad in his tracks - in fact he went quite pale. He said when he was five years old his mother had taken him to the fair, and he won for her a china ornament - it was a hand holding a fantail pigeon.
..............next post
When we went home I related the story to my father whose mother was the Romany lady. I told him everything the man had said - the names, the horses in Surrey - everything, and although I didn't have the foggiest idea about any of it, my dad knew exactly what it all meant. Then I came to the bit about the china ornament - the 'fantail and the hand', and that stopped my dad in his tracks - in fact he went quite pale. He said when he was five years old his mother had taken him to the fair, and he won for her a china ornament - it was a hand holding a fantail pigeon.
..............next post
continued ............I went through every conceivable notion to try to explain it all, but of course I couldn't. Could he have somehow read my mind or weedled information out of me in some clever, surreptitious way? No, because I didn't know about any of the things he said. Could he have thought I looked vaguely Romany and just had a stab at the Romany lady bit. No - I'm blonde with green eyes and look nothing like a Romany. I therefore had to conclude that there was no way he could have known these things unless he was indeed psychic, and he really did see the Romany lady.
Even though I didn't understand a word he said, apart from the reference to the Romany, I asked him to tell me about his ability, and he told me there's nothing spooky or supernatural about it at all - it's just like tuning into a radio. He said we are all made of energy, and although our bodies wear out and die, that energy doesn't.
One more thing he told me - that I was pregnant and that I would have a little girl in November. Then I was convinced he was totally and utterly mad - but he wasn't - because I was - and I did.
Sorry if I've prattled on too much - but you did ask!
Even though I didn't understand a word he said, apart from the reference to the Romany, I asked him to tell me about his ability, and he told me there's nothing spooky or supernatural about it at all - it's just like tuning into a radio. He said we are all made of energy, and although our bodies wear out and die, that energy doesn't.
One more thing he told me - that I was pregnant and that I would have a little girl in November. Then I was convinced he was totally and utterly mad - but he wasn't - because I was - and I did.
Sorry if I've prattled on too much - but you did ask!
Chakka, it is incredible isn't it - and now you know why I described him as 'very good'. That clearly wasn't an adequate statement.
As for his explanation about 'energy', I can't say it is necessarily nonsense - all I can say is that he knows more about it than I do because I don't have his ability, so I have no idea how it works. I don't know how the spirits of the dead materialise - but they seem to - and I don't know how psychics are able to contact them, apart from his explanation of it being like tuning into radio waves. I can only put it down to some form of energy. What else can it be?
We know so little about the human mind and the human psyche. If we could actually capture a thought or a feeling in a bottle and examine it, what would it consist of? Or the passion of love, or, indeed, of hate, or the destructive feeling of intense jealousy? It's all powerful stuff.
Think of people who can demonstrate psychokinesis - the power to move objects with the mind - or of people who 'know' what someone else is thinking. That power has to be energy of some sort - maybe electrical impulses? I really don't know - and the logical part of me always says if I don't know I can only say 'I don't know'. Wish I did though, because I find the whole subject intriguing! Hopefully, one day science will come to the rescue.
As for his explanation about 'energy', I can't say it is necessarily nonsense - all I can say is that he knows more about it than I do because I don't have his ability, so I have no idea how it works. I don't know how the spirits of the dead materialise - but they seem to - and I don't know how psychics are able to contact them, apart from his explanation of it being like tuning into radio waves. I can only put it down to some form of energy. What else can it be?
We know so little about the human mind and the human psyche. If we could actually capture a thought or a feeling in a bottle and examine it, what would it consist of? Or the passion of love, or, indeed, of hate, or the destructive feeling of intense jealousy? It's all powerful stuff.
Think of people who can demonstrate psychokinesis - the power to move objects with the mind - or of people who 'know' what someone else is thinking. That power has to be energy of some sort - maybe electrical impulses? I really don't know - and the logical part of me always says if I don't know I can only say 'I don't know'. Wish I did though, because I find the whole subject intriguing! Hopefully, one day science will come to the rescue.
Having been geniunely impressed by your account,naomi I must expaln that I object to the way that various psi-ers commandeer scientific terms in order to give rationale to their claims. Words like 'energy', 'frequency', 'vibrations', 'force' , 'spectum' and so on are bandied about in a way that shows that the users have no idea what they mean. Why can't they form their own vocabulary such as 'flirque', 'klum', 'britmis', 'drafrim', for example?
Oh gosh, you're now talking about 'people who can demonstrate psychokinesis'. Who on earth would they be? Surely not Geller and his fellow conjurors.
Oh gosh, you're now talking about 'people who can demonstrate psychokinesis'. Who on earth would they be? Surely not Geller and his fellow conjurors.
Just because a scientist uses words like, energy, spectrum, force etc doesn't mean he knows what they are but the scientific world has made up words to try to explain whatever it is they're talking about and those of us without a scientific background may use words that we think others will understand and have already been in use before.
It's the same as saying "Love".
We put together some letters to describe a feeling but can we really define it?
You could use words like those above:- klum, flirque and britmis but have to spend the the rest of the day trying to explain those.
It's the same as saying "Love".
We put together some letters to describe a feeling but can we really define it?
You could use words like those above:- klum, flirque and britmis but have to spend the the rest of the day trying to explain those.
Naomi, There is a good reason for keeping a lid on the Pandora's Box of the unexplained. Sooner or later someone comes along and uses supernatural claims as an excuse for irrational and unjustifiable behavior, "The Martians made me do it!" or as in the case of 911, "Allah's will be done". I am not accusing you of such practices but of late it seems you are intent on busting Pandora's Box wide open.
Supernatural and paranormal phenomena are, just as you have pointed out, non-explanations, which have a potential to be just as threatening and dangerous to the welfare of mankind as the mystical hand of 'God' has been throughout history when provided with the power of unfounded and mistaken beliefs. It is for this reason that countless claims of the paranormal have been shown, time after time and time again to be without merit. I do not know how many experiences of the kind you describe you have personally witnessed but I assure you that if you put forth an honest effort, most can be found to have an explanation that does not invoke the supernatural or require the creation of an entirely new branch of science to complete an investigation into their causes and those that fail to be explained do not rationally justify a rewriting of reality.
In spite of many hopeful investigations into this possibility it has never been clearly demonstrated that the mind can exist apart from the brain and body that support it. Nor does the mind have any power or ability to act, perceptually or otherwise, apart from or outside of a physical body to which it must be properly integrated through physical means.
Cont . . .
Supernatural and paranormal phenomena are, just as you have pointed out, non-explanations, which have a potential to be just as threatening and dangerous to the welfare of mankind as the mystical hand of 'God' has been throughout history when provided with the power of unfounded and mistaken beliefs. It is for this reason that countless claims of the paranormal have been shown, time after time and time again to be without merit. I do not know how many experiences of the kind you describe you have personally witnessed but I assure you that if you put forth an honest effort, most can be found to have an explanation that does not invoke the supernatural or require the creation of an entirely new branch of science to complete an investigation into their causes and those that fail to be explained do not rationally justify a rewriting of reality.
In spite of many hopeful investigations into this possibility it has never been clearly demonstrated that the mind can exist apart from the brain and body that support it. Nor does the mind have any power or ability to act, perceptually or otherwise, apart from or outside of a physical body to which it must be properly integrated through physical means.
Cont . . .
There is a limit to the virtue of an open mind and that is that it should not ignore the piles of previously acquired evidence available to it from carefully and rationally evaluated perceptions of reality when considering new possibilities.
If you should succeed in discovering an explanation for the unexplained then you will be a hero but until then I caution you not to be perceived as a fool or those who are there to help you will with good reason be looking instead for other candidates that show more promise for success.
Best of luck to you in your search for answers and understanding but I beg of you please don�t entice the 99.999% of those that are actual loonies out of the woodwork and pin them with the badge of good science and sound reasoning upon which the welfare of humanity depends.
Again I wish to abstain with pronouncing judgment as much as possible and I hope what I have said here you will find worthy of consideration. Even it much of it does not apply to you personally I think we can honestly say that some of it applies in varying degrees to us all.
Oh, and to save you the trouble I�ll just sigh this post:
Mr. Know-it-all
If you should succeed in discovering an explanation for the unexplained then you will be a hero but until then I caution you not to be perceived as a fool or those who are there to help you will with good reason be looking instead for other candidates that show more promise for success.
Best of luck to you in your search for answers and understanding but I beg of you please don�t entice the 99.999% of those that are actual loonies out of the woodwork and pin them with the badge of good science and sound reasoning upon which the welfare of humanity depends.
Again I wish to abstain with pronouncing judgment as much as possible and I hope what I have said here you will find worthy of consideration. Even it much of it does not apply to you personally I think we can honestly say that some of it applies in varying degrees to us all.
Oh, and to save you the trouble I�ll just sigh this post:
Mr. Know-it-all
Luna-tic, Words should have meanings that provide us with the potential for understanding based on common experience with perceived reality. A large part of the proper implementation of the methods of scientific investigation and discovery depends on the use of words that are clearly and specifically defined to insure that their meaning will not be misunderstood and can be intelligently conveyed to others who have taken the time and expended the effort to understand the definitions of those terms.
Love is a word, unlike �faith� �God� and �supernatural�, that has a very clear meaning for those who have taken the time and invested the effort to understand it. You are correct in stating that love is a feeling, or more definitively and emotional response to that which someone perceives as a value. As such love is not a physical object but an evaluation of a person, place or thing as positive to the wellbeing of the person experiencing it based on what they believe is good for them. Since love follows from such an evaluation the emotional response it provides is not necessarily a correct one. This is why it is important to discover it�s cause and to know what is good for oneself, otherwise it can be misleading and result and pain and suffering and misguided actions to both the person experiencing it and others whose are the recipients of those actions. There is probably much more that should be explained about this very important concept but I believe this warrants the creation of another thread.
Love is a word, unlike �faith� �God� and �supernatural�, that has a very clear meaning for those who have taken the time and invested the effort to understand it. You are correct in stating that love is a feeling, or more definitively and emotional response to that which someone perceives as a value. As such love is not a physical object but an evaluation of a person, place or thing as positive to the wellbeing of the person experiencing it based on what they believe is good for them. Since love follows from such an evaluation the emotional response it provides is not necessarily a correct one. This is why it is important to discover it�s cause and to know what is good for oneself, otherwise it can be misleading and result and pain and suffering and misguided actions to both the person experiencing it and others whose are the recipients of those actions. There is probably much more that should be explained about this very important concept but I believe this warrants the creation of another thread.
Hello mib,
Indeed you are correct in stating that the explanation for the meaning, use, historic and cultural basis for any word is indeed worthy of another thread in another topic but I was merely making a point prompted by chakka35 that people who are trying their best to explain experiences that at times can be terrifying to them and their families are using words such as energy, force, spectrum and so on without understanding their meaning.
Surely at this point the most important thing for the postee is to try and convey their story in the easiest way possible and why should they have to know the exact scientific meaning of a word in order to put the story forth?
There are those of us that do not have a scientific background yet have still had strange encounters and ghostly experiences and there's probably many people of science that have had the same but have to try to explain it using all the sytematic ,methodical phrases they could muster but still, don't really know what their talking about.
Indeed you are correct in stating that the explanation for the meaning, use, historic and cultural basis for any word is indeed worthy of another thread in another topic but I was merely making a point prompted by chakka35 that people who are trying their best to explain experiences that at times can be terrifying to them and their families are using words such as energy, force, spectrum and so on without understanding their meaning.
Surely at this point the most important thing for the postee is to try and convey their story in the easiest way possible and why should they have to know the exact scientific meaning of a word in order to put the story forth?
There are those of us that do not have a scientific background yet have still had strange encounters and ghostly experiences and there's probably many people of science that have had the same but have to try to explain it using all the sytematic ,methodical phrases they could muster but still, don't really know what their talking about.
naomi, don't go off in a huff. I am interested; it's just that I get impatient - not with you but with those who try to give explanations using words which make no sense in the context. The amazing chap you told us about said that we are all made of energy which is preserved when we die. That is true because it all becomes chemical energy as we decompose and then powers microbes, fungi and all sorts of other small-scale life. But what has that got to do with what he demonstrated to you?
And do tell me about people who have demonstrated psychokenesis. All the ones I've read about so far have proved to be mere conjurers. Or the person telling the story has got it wrong.
And do tell me about people who have demonstrated psychokenesis. All the ones I've read about so far have proved to be mere conjurers. Or the person telling the story has got it wrong.
Hi Naomi :-)
I had an out of body experience. I was in a very serious house fire (Boxing Day 93). The smoke was choking, thick and black. I remember not being able to breathe, trying to cover my face, needing air. Could not see. I was hunched up on the bed, dying... saying to myself oh no!!! I've got mums car.... didn't want to go to work anyway..... where's the bloody white tunnel? sorry God, shouldn't be swearing should I.
And then I was looking down at myself.
I was pulled unconscious through a window by The Old Kent Road Fire Brigade (obviously don't remember that bit) and ended up in Guys. I lost precious family. (partner and his nan) It is still clear in my head.
The Christmas night that I was leaving my mum and dads to go to my boyfriends and his nan and grandad, my brother came out and said don't go. The night was very very dark and there was a sense of something. I know we both felt it.
So.... the next day.... they see me charcoaled in hospital......
That's my out of body experience in a nutshell.....
I had an out of body experience. I was in a very serious house fire (Boxing Day 93). The smoke was choking, thick and black. I remember not being able to breathe, trying to cover my face, needing air. Could not see. I was hunched up on the bed, dying... saying to myself oh no!!! I've got mums car.... didn't want to go to work anyway..... where's the bloody white tunnel? sorry God, shouldn't be swearing should I.
And then I was looking down at myself.
I was pulled unconscious through a window by The Old Kent Road Fire Brigade (obviously don't remember that bit) and ended up in Guys. I lost precious family. (partner and his nan) It is still clear in my head.
The Christmas night that I was leaving my mum and dads to go to my boyfriends and his nan and grandad, my brother came out and said don't go. The night was very very dark and there was a sense of something. I know we both felt it.
So.... the next day.... they see me charcoaled in hospital......
That's my out of body experience in a nutshell.....
Chakka, I haven't gone off in a huff - I just can't see a reason to continue this conversation because you clearly haven't the foggiest idea of what I'm talking about. We're talking about the soul and the power of the mind and of emotions - what have the chemical compounds of a decomposing body got to do with anything - or the words people use, come to that? No please don't answer that. Enough is enough. And then there's mibn, who explains in supercilious yawn-worthy diatribe why he thinks the lid should be kept on the unexplained, so I'm at a loss to understand why he's entering into the discussion at all. After all, it began as an interesting debate about out of body experiences, and I would call that the unexplained. I'm gradually losing the will to live, so if you hear the ghostly clatter of a phantom keyboard, you'll know it's me returning from the dead to provide you two with the ultimate proof! Bye chaps. See you in another thread maybe.
