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The Pope's vision of hell
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Although I read this section a lot this is the first time I've posted a question. I'm interested to know what people's views are on the latest pronouncement from the pope.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/eu rope/article1572646.ece
Personally I think it's a load of twaddle like all religious doctrine but I'd like to hear everyone else's opinions!
I need something interesting to read while pretending to work!!
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/eu rope/article1572646.ece
Personally I think it's a load of twaddle like all religious doctrine but I'd like to hear everyone else's opinions!
I need something interesting to read while pretending to work!!
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Mani - Your argument makes no sense, you say that Catholics commit idolatry but you will not say how?? and your argument about 1000 painful deaths is ridiculous.
Naomi - Yes, sorry I did mean Idolatry. Well I agree with you about the hellfire and damnation being nonesense I would be unhappy if someone threatened my daughter with hellfire the same as anyone else would.
I'm not trying to pursude you that hell or the devil exist, I said in my first post that I can understand how people who are Athiests or who do not follow certain religions would find it hard to believe.
I think you have upset Mani again.
Naomi - Yes, sorry I did mean Idolatry. Well I agree with you about the hellfire and damnation being nonesense I would be unhappy if someone threatened my daughter with hellfire the same as anyone else would.
I'm not trying to pursude you that hell or the devil exist, I said in my first post that I can understand how people who are Athiests or who do not follow certain religions would find it hard to believe.
I think you have upset Mani again.
Oh no? You don't look down on me? You're the one who told me I was an adultress because I married for a second time.
I haven't spread lies, Mani, and it's not fair to say that I have. I have said that you're easily influenced by your church, because from what you say I believe you are. Just look at your posts to this question. You're condemning other Christians, who believe in their religion just as strongly as you believe in yours, as idolaters, and you've even said you believe the pope might be the anti-Christ. Is that rational?
I haven't spread lies, Mani, and it's not fair to say that I have. I have said that you're easily influenced by your church, because from what you say I believe you are. Just look at your posts to this question. You're condemning other Christians, who believe in their religion just as strongly as you believe in yours, as idolaters, and you've even said you believe the pope might be the anti-Christ. Is that rational?
I think you're barking up the wrong tree here with the idolotry thing mani.
A Catholic will almost certainly tell you that they do not pray to statues any more than other christians pray to crosses of a muslim preys to his prayer mat.
That they use them merely to as a focus to help them concentrate on the divine.
You'd be much better asking them about the Virgin Mary and especially why exactly it is that they believe she was assumed into heaven when the bible doen't tell them so - the answer is of course that a Pope told them so and he knew because he thought about it and go divine inspiration.
It's also interesting to ask why they believe Mary was the product of a virgin birth too!
And they really don't like sites like this http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/faq/sisters. html
A Catholic will almost certainly tell you that they do not pray to statues any more than other christians pray to crosses of a muslim preys to his prayer mat.
That they use them merely to as a focus to help them concentrate on the divine.
You'd be much better asking them about the Virgin Mary and especially why exactly it is that they believe she was assumed into heaven when the bible doen't tell them so - the answer is of course that a Pope told them so and he knew because he thought about it and go divine inspiration.
It's also interesting to ask why they believe Mary was the product of a virgin birth too!
And they really don't like sites like this http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/faq/sisters. html
-- answer removed --
The Catholic argument that Mary remained a virgin is actually far stronger than the Protestants claim that Mary bore children other than Jesus. In fact even the Protestant Reformers such as Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Ulrich Zwingli honored the perpetual virginity of Mary and recognized it as the teaching of the Bible.
Neither the Gospel accounts nor the early Christians attest to the idea that Mary bore any other children besides Jesus. The faithful knew, through the witness of Scripture and Tradition, that Jesus was Mary�s only child and that she remained a lifelong virgin.
An important historical document which supports the teaching of Mary�s perpetual virginity is the Protoevangelium of James, which was written less than sixty years after the conclusion of Mary�s earthly life.
According to the Protoevangelium, Joseph, an elderly widower who already had children, was chosen to be her spouse. (This would also explain why Joseph was apparently dead by the time of Jesus� adult ministry, since he does not appear during it in the gospels, and since Mary is entrusted to John, rather than to her husband Joseph, at the crucifixion).
In the Protestant argument the term brethren is usually mistranslated. The understanding that the brethren of the Lord were Jesus� stepbrothers (children of Joseph) rather than half-brothers (children of Mary) was the most common one until the time of Jerome (fourth century). It was Jerome who introduced the possibility that Christ�s brethren were actually his cousins, since in Jewish idiom cousins were also referred to as "brethren."
Neither the Gospel accounts nor the early Christians attest to the idea that Mary bore any other children besides Jesus. The faithful knew, through the witness of Scripture and Tradition, that Jesus was Mary�s only child and that she remained a lifelong virgin.
An important historical document which supports the teaching of Mary�s perpetual virginity is the Protoevangelium of James, which was written less than sixty years after the conclusion of Mary�s earthly life.
According to the Protoevangelium, Joseph, an elderly widower who already had children, was chosen to be her spouse. (This would also explain why Joseph was apparently dead by the time of Jesus� adult ministry, since he does not appear during it in the gospels, and since Mary is entrusted to John, rather than to her husband Joseph, at the crucifixion).
In the Protestant argument the term brethren is usually mistranslated. The understanding that the brethren of the Lord were Jesus� stepbrothers (children of Joseph) rather than half-brothers (children of Mary) was the most common one until the time of Jerome (fourth century). It was Jerome who introduced the possibility that Christ�s brethren were actually his cousins, since in Jewish idiom cousins were also referred to as "brethren."
ludwig.."the only major religion we can all make fun of without fear of been killed." It wasnt that long ago that we WOULD have been killed.And I dont see Buddhists killing non believers.
Mani why do you have this paranoia that myself and naomi have an anti christian agenda? I have no more an anti christian agenda than I have an anti Buddhist, islamic,hindu or jewish agenda. What I DO have is a pro-reason and logic agenda.If anything its you that has an agenda.An agenda that is against common sense.
On another thread you stated that I said that you should be beheaded.Can you tell me where I said this please?
Can you also enlighten us on your views on divorce as I have asked you before and you have avoided the question.So here it is again...If a woman marries a man and he then turns out to be a violent, drunken wife beater who routinly bullies his spouse and children and gambles all his money away, is she expected to stay with him, when she could remarry to a man who cares for her and will love her? I dont expect you to answer because you cant, but I will ask again anyway so that the people on here can see how pathetic your views are.
Mani why do you have this paranoia that myself and naomi have an anti christian agenda? I have no more an anti christian agenda than I have an anti Buddhist, islamic,hindu or jewish agenda. What I DO have is a pro-reason and logic agenda.If anything its you that has an agenda.An agenda that is against common sense.
On another thread you stated that I said that you should be beheaded.Can you tell me where I said this please?
Can you also enlighten us on your views on divorce as I have asked you before and you have avoided the question.So here it is again...If a woman marries a man and he then turns out to be a violent, drunken wife beater who routinly bullies his spouse and children and gambles all his money away, is she expected to stay with him, when she could remarry to a man who cares for her and will love her? I dont expect you to answer because you cant, but I will ask again anyway so that the people on here can see how pathetic your views are.
Mani, I don't have any agenda, nor do I hate anyone. I have, however, seen the results of Born Again Christians frightening the life out of people, when all my younger members of staff were in floods of tears because one of your sect had been preaching to them and telling them that unless they became "born again", they were going to burn in hell.
You haven't caused me offence - I've told you before, your opinion of my remarriage isn't important, but it's sad that people who call themselves Christians feel justified in judging their fellow man so harshly and in such as way as to go against the basic creed of what I would consider to be Jesus's fundamental teaching to love one another. Whatever I say about you, Mani, is kindly meant I assure you. Of course, what, and who you believe is your choice, but I don't like to see people so screwed up and obsessed with the fear and guilt that religion causes.
It seems to me that people who weren't contemporaries of Jesus and who never knew him have spun these stories around to such an extent it's no wonder all the churches disagree. Men introduced the idea that Jesus was god several hundred years after the event. Likewise, Mary, according to the Catholic church, ascended bodily into heaven, an idea introduced by a pope only 50 years ago, so it speaks for itself. How any rational person can place any credence on what they say is beyond my comprehension. And what's the point of it all? If Jesus came and died an horrific death to save our sins, wouldn't you have thought god would have made his intentions clearer? If he is all-knowing, he must have known the conflict he was causing to future generations, so I have to ask why?
Incidentally, why do you think the pope is the anti-Christ?
You haven't caused me offence - I've told you before, your opinion of my remarriage isn't important, but it's sad that people who call themselves Christians feel justified in judging their fellow man so harshly and in such as way as to go against the basic creed of what I would consider to be Jesus's fundamental teaching to love one another. Whatever I say about you, Mani, is kindly meant I assure you. Of course, what, and who you believe is your choice, but I don't like to see people so screwed up and obsessed with the fear and guilt that religion causes.
It seems to me that people who weren't contemporaries of Jesus and who never knew him have spun these stories around to such an extent it's no wonder all the churches disagree. Men introduced the idea that Jesus was god several hundred years after the event. Likewise, Mary, according to the Catholic church, ascended bodily into heaven, an idea introduced by a pope only 50 years ago, so it speaks for itself. How any rational person can place any credence on what they say is beyond my comprehension. And what's the point of it all? If Jesus came and died an horrific death to save our sins, wouldn't you have thought god would have made his intentions clearer? If he is all-knowing, he must have known the conflict he was causing to future generations, so I have to ask why?
Incidentally, why do you think the pope is the anti-Christ?
Morning everyone, to say that Catholics only believe in the ascention because the Pope said so 50 years ago is just not true.
Yes, in 1950 Pope Pius XII made the Assumption official theological doctrine of the Roman Church but this was just a matter of making it official. The assumption has been church teaching since the 4th century, just look up Theoteknos, a sixth century bishop, who argued who frequently wrote about the ascention.
Yes, in 1950 Pope Pius XII made the Assumption official theological doctrine of the Roman Church but this was just a matter of making it official. The assumption has been church teaching since the 4th century, just look up Theoteknos, a sixth century bishop, who argued who frequently wrote about the ascention.
Well crikey! I didn't expect this much debate - its been fascinating reading everyone's views and I feel very ignorant compared to everyone else's extensive knowledge of the subject.
I'm an atheist - not because I've studied in great detail but simply because no religious beliefs of any description make even the slightest sense to me - I'm all for logic, reason and common sense and religion of any kind seems to me to be the complete opposite of that and therefore I just can't believe any of it and have no wish to. I do however respect that others think very differently but that doesn't stop me getting really really angry with the intolerance that is shown by so many "people of faith".
As I think Naomi said the use of fear, intimidation and threats of hellfire and damnation just seem ridiculous and wrong. If peope want to believe thats fine but to force them to believe under threat of eternal fire cannot be right.
And for all those people who will say I'm going to burn for lack of belief well all I can say is fine by me because if thats the case then so will all my family and friends and I'd rather be in hell with them than sitting on a cloud in heaven all by myself!!
I'm an atheist - not because I've studied in great detail but simply because no religious beliefs of any description make even the slightest sense to me - I'm all for logic, reason and common sense and religion of any kind seems to me to be the complete opposite of that and therefore I just can't believe any of it and have no wish to. I do however respect that others think very differently but that doesn't stop me getting really really angry with the intolerance that is shown by so many "people of faith".
As I think Naomi said the use of fear, intimidation and threats of hellfire and damnation just seem ridiculous and wrong. If peope want to believe thats fine but to force them to believe under threat of eternal fire cannot be right.
And for all those people who will say I'm going to burn for lack of belief well all I can say is fine by me because if thats the case then so will all my family and friends and I'd rather be in hell with them than sitting on a cloud in heaven all by myself!!
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