ChatterBank1 min ago
Should religion be dumped?
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As the existence of a god was thought up in more primitive times to explain things that people were unable to understand at that time, is it not time that we all agreed that we have outgrown it, and put it behind us with all the other superstitions?
Is there any other unprovable theory that does not bring derision down on its followers?
Is there any other unprovable theory that does not bring derision down on its followers?
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But wouldn�t that entail following your personal ideology, or would we be expected to abandon all our own views, opinions and freedom of expression as well?
It sounds though you (and chakka) have already put religion behind you and that is your choice, but why should everyone have to follow you? Why don't you just strive on in your own non-religious world?
It sounds though you (and chakka) have already put religion behind you and that is your choice, but why should everyone have to follow you? Why don't you just strive on in your own non-religious world?
I think beliefs are a personal thing, but all too often they cause arguments and wars. Nobody can say there isn't a God, despite increasing scientific evidence as to where we all came from and how things started. For some, religion offers comfort and a reason for life; for others, it's a waste of time. For this reason, I haven't baptized my children into any faith. I don't want to label them before they have chance to make up their own minds, and when and if that day comes, I'll be happy with whatever's right for them.
Because people are blowing up buildings and tube trains and murdering abortion doctors and invading other countries under false pretences and restricting our capacity to find cures for debilitating diseases and committing genocide and stopping us from watching plays and repressing people because of their sexuality and stopping people using condoms as a direct concequence of their religious views, Octavius.
If religion were a personal thing that didn't spill over into these other actions, it would be harmless, but it isn't.
If religion were a personal thing that didn't spill over into these other actions, it would be harmless, but it isn't.
Banning religion by law would just replace one idealogical dictatorship with another.
But I don't see why we should continue to allow it to be taught in public schools and pay for the privilege!
Nor should Church of England bishops be given a seat in the house of Lords by virtue of their office.
When the Church of England can't even get 1 in 10 of the people in this country onto it's pews on a Suday it's time for it to give up claiming special status
But I don't see why we should continue to allow it to be taught in public schools and pay for the privilege!
Nor should Church of England bishops be given a seat in the house of Lords by virtue of their office.
When the Church of England can't even get 1 in 10 of the people in this country onto it's pews on a Suday it's time for it to give up claiming special status
This is a perennial question, and perennially dull. It amuses me how the anti-religion set get so annoyed with Christians, as though they are intellectually backward.
The Resurrection of Jesus Christ was not a logical or rational event. If you conclude that it cannot have happened because of your modern and updated scientific knowledge, then sobeit for you. Miracles and Resurrections are not rational, this is what you all miss ! They are not supposed to be rational, they are supposed to be spiritual. You want to rationalise eternity and ultimate truth ? So when you die, you stop, all gone, full-stop. Jolly good, you must cling desperately to your pointless life.
The Resurrection of Jesus Christ was not a logical or rational event. If you conclude that it cannot have happened because of your modern and updated scientific knowledge, then sobeit for you. Miracles and Resurrections are not rational, this is what you all miss ! They are not supposed to be rational, they are supposed to be spiritual. You want to rationalise eternity and ultimate truth ? So when you die, you stop, all gone, full-stop. Jolly good, you must cling desperately to your pointless life.
In the words of the song, "we're never going to win the war if belief is what we're fighting for" - it's religion that causes war - not faith. But any one person thinking they are right over others is still basically the same thing - if your belief states there is no god and you say all should think the same way as you then it is as bad as those who claim that God does exist and that all should beleive the same. Mans need to be right all the time and to stamp on those who do not agree is where religion becomes dangerous.
Tillyfloss, I understand the point you're making, but a couple of points;
1) By stopping believing in religion there's no compulsion to believe anything else in common with other atheists. It's like saying 'Hey, we both don't believe in Odin, therefore we should set up home together...'
2) If you are comparing two things and one of those things has a wealth of evidence to support it that bears repeated testing and the other does not, you are not comparing like with like. If I said, 'there's a dragon in the room, but you can't see it, smell it, touch it, hear it, or in any other way detect that it is in the room, but it is there because it says so on this piece of paper' that is not the same as saying, 'there is a table in this room - that's it there - go put your glass on it,' which statement would you say is credible and worthy of your belief?
1) By stopping believing in religion there's no compulsion to believe anything else in common with other atheists. It's like saying 'Hey, we both don't believe in Odin, therefore we should set up home together...'
2) If you are comparing two things and one of those things has a wealth of evidence to support it that bears repeated testing and the other does not, you are not comparing like with like. If I said, 'there's a dragon in the room, but you can't see it, smell it, touch it, hear it, or in any other way detect that it is in the room, but it is there because it says so on this piece of paper' that is not the same as saying, 'there is a table in this room - that's it there - go put your glass on it,' which statement would you say is credible and worthy of your belief?
I certainly hope the mass lobotomys don't become law. It's bad enough on here at times.
If you dump it you take away peoples right to decide whether they believe for themself.
For some religion is a great source of comfort.
For those that take it too far it can be lethal.
I don't believe in organised religion, I think it harms more than it helps. But that's my personal view. My mother takes a great source of joy from it and aside from the one time she caught me smoking something that wasn't a fag (or a sausage) she has yet to lose all her rational capabilities.
And religion has proved before to be something that if you strike it hard will only come back stronger (there's a quote somewhere about it being a nail but I can't remember it or who said it).
I don't think the idea of religion is necessarily a bad thing as a source of comfort. However man corrupts it.
If you dump it you take away peoples right to decide whether they believe for themself.
For some religion is a great source of comfort.
For those that take it too far it can be lethal.
I don't believe in organised religion, I think it harms more than it helps. But that's my personal view. My mother takes a great source of joy from it and aside from the one time she caught me smoking something that wasn't a fag (or a sausage) she has yet to lose all her rational capabilities.
And religion has proved before to be something that if you strike it hard will only come back stronger (there's a quote somewhere about it being a nail but I can't remember it or who said it).
I don't think the idea of religion is necessarily a bad thing as a source of comfort. However man corrupts it.
Ice- and others who subscribe to these thoughts: I�m not certain that science �has� all the answers yet. I�ve had the honour of sitting with some rather learned individuals and willingly absorbed and embraced the science of discovery. However, there is a point where science becomes finite. That�s after the scientist explains big bangs, super novas, intergalactic dust, and gamma rays from distant stars. But step just a few more millimetres away from this and the honest scientist will say they just don�t know. This is where the mechanics of science fail and the science of faith begins.
From the very seconds my children found my wife�s breast for nurturing and sustenance their inherent personalities were evident. Again, scientists can provide infinite data on the miracle of birth. But they�re stumped when it comes to the miracle of that unique spark and nucleus that flows from within and is revealed in your child�s precious and unique personality.
Ice- the matter of Baptism is certainly a very personal one, just as are all things. As parents we all want the best we can provide for our children and it is our natural composite that we instinctively want to provide our children the best protection we can.
Continued:
From the very seconds my children found my wife�s breast for nurturing and sustenance their inherent personalities were evident. Again, scientists can provide infinite data on the miracle of birth. But they�re stumped when it comes to the miracle of that unique spark and nucleus that flows from within and is revealed in your child�s precious and unique personality.
Ice- the matter of Baptism is certainly a very personal one, just as are all things. As parents we all want the best we can provide for our children and it is our natural composite that we instinctively want to provide our children the best protection we can.
Continued:
Part 2
The act of Baptism is the celebration of entering God�s family and a personal prayer (or hope) that your child be protected - not only in a spiritual sense, but in a familial sense as well. That is why baptisms typically take place within a scheduled church-service and not after the service: The church body � that being the members of that church - are also affirming their responsibility towards your child and their vow to protect your child. This bond is often not thought of after that celebration day.
However, there are sad occasions, where one or both of the parents die unexpectedly. Those Godparents, who took their vow to care for your child, are thankfully there, to continue to care for your children, raising them in the same loving way you would have wanted. Rather than �Godparent� in Judaism, the term is called Sandik. In Islam, the child is regarded as a gift that God has entrusted to the parents and therefore the family is seen as the centre of society.
What the act of Baptism isn�t is a weight or a form of subjugation of your child�s free will and ability to follow their own spiritual journeys. Instead, many years later, rather than being seen as a label of some frivolous or misguided act on your part, it may be seen as a wholly unselfish act of a mother who sincerely wanted to protect their child and provide the very best she could.
I respect everyone�s views and opinions. My spiritual journeys will be uniquely different than someone else�s. Accordingly our world would not be full of all its beautiful, vibrant colours, if we all believed precisely the same thing.
I wish you the gift of vision in all your journeys
Fr. Bill
The act of Baptism is the celebration of entering God�s family and a personal prayer (or hope) that your child be protected - not only in a spiritual sense, but in a familial sense as well. That is why baptisms typically take place within a scheduled church-service and not after the service: The church body � that being the members of that church - are also affirming their responsibility towards your child and their vow to protect your child. This bond is often not thought of after that celebration day.
However, there are sad occasions, where one or both of the parents die unexpectedly. Those Godparents, who took their vow to care for your child, are thankfully there, to continue to care for your children, raising them in the same loving way you would have wanted. Rather than �Godparent� in Judaism, the term is called Sandik. In Islam, the child is regarded as a gift that God has entrusted to the parents and therefore the family is seen as the centre of society.
What the act of Baptism isn�t is a weight or a form of subjugation of your child�s free will and ability to follow their own spiritual journeys. Instead, many years later, rather than being seen as a label of some frivolous or misguided act on your part, it may be seen as a wholly unselfish act of a mother who sincerely wanted to protect their child and provide the very best she could.
I respect everyone�s views and opinions. My spiritual journeys will be uniquely different than someone else�s. Accordingly our world would not be full of all its beautiful, vibrant colours, if we all believed precisely the same thing.
I wish you the gift of vision in all your journeys
Fr. Bill
Tillyfloss, I'm sorry you feel the need to cut off the discussion by disengaging (which is surely *you* insisting your point of view is the correct one, is it not?) but this is a site where people can debate views. I don't think that anything I said was aggressive or rude, merely throwing a couple of points into the discussion, so I'm a little disapointed that you've decided not to debate the issues further. Debate is one of the best ways in which people learn. I certainly do. I'm sorry you don't share that view, but I'm not going to apologise merely for having an opinion, nor for enjoying a good rigorous debate.
Is it really unreasonable to point out that if you attempt to place an anvil and a horseshoe on a set of scales one side will go up and one side will go down, even if both are made of iron? I don't think it is, but the floor is open for anyone to oppose that point of view.
Is it really unreasonable to point out that if you attempt to place an anvil and a horseshoe on a set of scales one side will go up and one side will go down, even if both are made of iron? I don't think it is, but the floor is open for anyone to oppose that point of view.
Well it depends on what you mean Waldo. While I don't disagree with the first point you made (see the stars), I can't agree with the second statement, point 1.
But that might be because I don't understand the point you're making. Are you suggestion that religion be taken out of any political/educational/mainstream type areas? Thus hopefully ensuring that decisions are made without the moral high(?)ground?
Or are you saying religion is a bad thing in gneral?
But that might be because I don't understand the point you're making. Are you suggestion that religion be taken out of any political/educational/mainstream type areas? Thus hopefully ensuring that decisions are made without the moral high(?)ground?
Or are you saying religion is a bad thing in gneral?
I'd be interested to know where you get your insight of science V V?
Thing is humanity will never understand everything - nobody disputes that, but that doesn't mean we have to go inventing gods and other supernatural explanations.
Just because Science has an end it doesn't mean faith starts there!
And all the poetic language you can muster doesn't hide the fact that when all's said and done faith is just intellectual surrender.
I can only be grateful that people like Galileo and Darwin who were the forefathers of my science didn't let themselves get stopped by the popes and Bishops that were the forefathers of you faith
Thing is humanity will never understand everything - nobody disputes that, but that doesn't mean we have to go inventing gods and other supernatural explanations.
Just because Science has an end it doesn't mean faith starts there!
And all the poetic language you can muster doesn't hide the fact that when all's said and done faith is just intellectual surrender.
I can only be grateful that people like Galileo and Darwin who were the forefathers of my science didn't let themselves get stopped by the popes and Bishops that were the forefathers of you faith
Waldo, for the record you neither know what views I share nor have the faintest clue as to my beleifs or understandings or willingness to debate & learn. I must say that I love your unusual comparisons & metaphors (an anvil and horseshoe to add to our dragon!) that to be honest make little or no sense to me nor would it seem to others, but to each their own - however on signing off I was attending to a prescious thing that I hold as sacred to my own faith - my daughter - of which I place much higher on my priority list than debating with you... and finally as you seemed to have missed the humour intended in my signing off message I will share this with you before again signing off for bed (but which you no doubt will take to be another more sinister reason)... I was joking - lighten up!
Lastly - for someone who's comments I have the greatest respect for here on AB - Fr Bill, I have had my daughter Christened for all the reasons you state and will also become a Godmother to my friends daughter this Sunday - thank you for reminding me of why that is so much a gift to them and us :-)
Lastly - for someone who's comments I have the greatest respect for here on AB - Fr Bill, I have had my daughter Christened for all the reasons you state and will also become a Godmother to my friends daughter this Sunday - thank you for reminding me of why that is so much a gift to them and us :-)
Jake: I would have to share in your gratitude. As I seem to be constantly reminded by my own bishop, I tend to have an almost unquenchable thirst for knowledge. Indeed, we would all be in a bit of a dark pickle had it not been for the vision and insight of Galileo and Darwin. Throughout his life, Galileo remained a devout Catholic. His denunciation in 1615, where he was placed under house arrest, was for Copernicanism, not any heretical theological views. I have often reflected on his statement that the Bible cannot err. But people often forget that the rest of his statement was that there needed to be a broader understanding of how the Bible should be interpreted. Here here!
I�m truly sorry you believe those who recognise our spirituality are victims of intellectual surrender. I should imagine that its an individual who refuses to provide an opportunity for all views to be considered is neither a scientist or a visionary.
Tilly: I�m delighted to hear this. It�s a wonderful gift you have offered your friends and their daughter. Perhaps as you respond to the interrogatories this Sunday, you will hold in your thoughts those who have no one to care for them.
I respect everyone�s views. It is from the act of sharing and asking that we all grow as a community with greater understanding and respect for one another.
I bid you all good night
Fr Bill
I�m truly sorry you believe those who recognise our spirituality are victims of intellectual surrender. I should imagine that its an individual who refuses to provide an opportunity for all views to be considered is neither a scientist or a visionary.
Tilly: I�m delighted to hear this. It�s a wonderful gift you have offered your friends and their daughter. Perhaps as you respond to the interrogatories this Sunday, you will hold in your thoughts those who have no one to care for them.
I respect everyone�s views. It is from the act of sharing and asking that we all grow as a community with greater understanding and respect for one another.
I bid you all good night
Fr Bill
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