Catholics fear creation of Frankenstein

[ruby27]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scien ce/article3607660.ece

This is a genuine question rather than a veiled or not so veiled attack on those with religious views.

Whilst I can understand (even if I don't agree with the views of those that are anti abortion), I can not quite understand why the church (parts of Catholic anyway), are so concerned about this bill. My very scanty knowledge by listening to Prof Blakemore indicates that this method will use more adult cells rather than growing new cells which some fear is new life and therefore harming a human, playing at god.

So apart from wanting any new scientific venture to be rigorously examined, what is the real concern about this approach to medical research?

[bensmum]

I can't answer properly as I am not catholic but it seems to boil down to science v superstition.
I wonder how many of these catholics are concerned with all life or are they okay with using animal cells and is it just human life which is sacred according to them?

[naomi24]

I'm not sure whether the real issue is the source of the cells used. I imagine from a religious point of view it's more about playing God.

[Octavius]

I think the new Bill raises questions about moral and ethical issues, not religious ones.

20 years ago scientists were accused of tinkering with the sacred building blocks of life with the first IVF baby, something which has brought incalculable joy to millions of families from all religions.

The bill allows a licence to create an embryo by using human gametes and animal gametes, combining 99.9% human hybrids, 50%-50% hybrids and everything in between as "human admixed embryos". It allows licences to be given for all of them.

The free vote concerns three sections of the bill, including allowing scientists to create embryos with human DNA and animal cells; whether fertility clinics should be barred from refusing treatment to single women and lesbians; and on creating a child with the correct tissue match to save a sick brother or sister.

It is not my religion that makes me slightly uneasy about the proposals, just caution in the ethics and moral consciousness of the issue, specifically mixing animal DNA with humans to create a �new� type of human.

[ruby27]

Thank you bensum and naomi24, but I suspect you are no more sure than I am. Octavius Thank you for your full answer

Still, surely the mixture of human and animal cells is not going to result in a live creature is it? Isn't it just the bits (you can tell I don't have a scientific background) that are needed for the medical research.

I agree that the issues should be debated as just because science may be rational and impartial the application of science by humans is not.

[naomi24]

Octavius is far more rational than some more die hard religionists and appears to keep his feet pretty firmly on the ground. Obviously there are going to be varying opinions amongst people of religion, but I suspect many would, without doubt, consider this to be playing God. I wonder what Theland thinks? Theland!! Are you there?

[Octavius]

I think that is the crux of the debate ruby. If - sorry to use the cliche - 'designer' embryo's are created from these hybrid formations, then is it considered a 'life'?

Since embryos (that which grows) eventually evolve into life, then quite possibly, yes. The proposals are that many embryos will be developed, used for its intended purpose and then disposed of. Embryos are created (naturally) from the moment of fertilisation until the end of the 8th week, whereafter it is instead called a fetus.

If one considers that an emryo is not 'life' as we know it (Jim) then I guess it is not so much of an issue.

[LoftyLottie]

I am not a religious person but agree entirely with Octavius. I am very uneasy about this on moral and ethical grounds.

[Octavius]

Or as Theland would call me Naomi, a false Christian.

[Gromit]

The church held back scientific progress for centuries and persecuted or killed anyone who dared contradict their tatty old book.

It stiffled progress, free thinking, ideas and discovery.
The present research (which the followers of the tatty old book object to) offers the chance to end suffering for people afflicted with Parkinson's disease and motor neurone disease.

But what do you expect from people who would sooner see millions of babies die in Africa, rather than let their fathers put a bit of rubber on their kn�bs.

[keyplus90]

I am not Christian but a Muslim. I believe as God says in Quran that there is no disease without a cure for it. He has given people brain and wisdom to find that cure. Then starts the second bit, and that is what Octavius said. If we are creating embryo then it is a life. If we are using one life to save another then it will surely create imbalance in this world and disposable people. If someone watched a program on TV recently about Human Body parts business in America. Donating a body part as donation used to be was perfectly fine. But then few rich people started buying body parts and demand gave a rise to supply or need of supply. Then what happened ever body knows about that.

So at the end I would say that it is not all about playing God by just producing something. More important is that keeping the balance once you have managed to produce.

[chakka35]

The hysterical rant by the Edinburgh Archbishop was based, I hope, more on ignorance than on a deliberate intention to deceive.
The particular "Frankenstein" experiment he was talking about (silly man) involves taking an egg from a rabbit or a cow, then a skin cell (i.e. a dead cell) from a human being with Alzheimer's (or something), extracting the DNA from that cell and inserting it into the rabbit egg.

DNA is not living; it is a group of chemicals arranged in a code. The human being is therefore not involved at all, and talk of the process being an affront to human dignity, human rights, the sacrednesss of human life and so on is strident bunkum.

In a free country religious leaders are just as entitled to their opinions as anyone else, but when they are based on a total lack of understanding of the subject, it is foolish to take them seriously.

[LoftyLottie]

I suppose from the very first time the human race found a cure for any disease then the balance of life was truly disturbed. I have to tell myself this because I can't visualise a world where our scientific knowledge allows us to prolong life and eliminate all disease and somehow I find that thought disturbing. We have now developed so far and our knowledge is so great that we seem to overlook the fact that death is inevitable and a necessary part of life.

I don't really know how to express what I feel easily. I just know that I am uneasy about so much intervention to prolong life, although, of course, I welcome the relief of suffering.

[Octavius]

I do not claim to have a great understanding of the technology or deep knowledge of the issues involved, yet I remain reticent on the basis of my moral and ethical understanding of what this bill might entail.

Am I not to be taken seriously either?

[keyplus90]

LoftyLottie - I agree with you. Only difference is that scientists will find means to prolong life. But there is no cure for death. Even people have longer life then again few will die because of the lack of food or other things. In the end I believe death is as important as life. Otherwise sometimes life can become so unbearable that people try to kill themselves. Or they want doctors to switch the life support machine off. It is as we are playing card game, we are trying to find a way to win without fully knowing about what is in the mind of the person sitting in the opposite seat.

[LoftyLottie]

Thanks for understanding what I was trying to say keyplus! Nature has a wonderful way of maintaining balance and man seeks to intervene. I just wonder about the madness of it all!!

[naomi24]

Keyplus I believe as God says in Quran that there is no disease without a cure for it. He has given people brain and wisdom to find that cure............ If we are creating embryo then it is a life. If we are using one life to save another then it will surely create imbalance in this world and disposable people.

Isn't that a contradiction? If God gave us a brain and wisdom to find a cure, should we limit our knowledge because human ethics demand it. Perhaps this is the means that your God gave us for finding that cure.

As for creating an imbalance in the world, doctors save lives, and prolong life every day, thereby interfering with the balance of nature continually. Perhaps the true balance of nature would be better maintained if we stopped treating ailments completely, and simply allowed people to die whenever nature or disease dictates.

[Octavius]

Perhaps that would indeed defer the reported population overload and destruction / overuse of our natural resources to the detriment of our planet?

But I doubt many of us would be content to sit by and let our fellow man (or woman) die without even attempting to help them to sustain their earthly life.

[naomi24]

Precisely. It's a matter of where we draw the line - and that would be a very fine line if that reseach results in curing our own loved ones.

[keyplus90]

Naomi � in your mind everything is contradiction. God created male and female, Sea and dry land, Hot and cold, light and darkness, all these are contradictions aren�t they. God has given people brain, yes that is right but he has also told them their limitation as well. As he knew people like you would argue that why there are limitations then he gave us �A go ahead� and see the consequences. Doctors are curing the ailments, yes that is right. So does nature as well. Still your scientists are talking about the way people in remote tribes treat disease. I am not against saving life, but my faith is that a life can only be saved when its time is not over. There is no cure for death. Few things God has not given in human control. For what you are saying, I said earlier that you should not try to prolong life for no reason, otherwise there are two possibilities.

1 � You will have so many people who are suffering from diseases but are being prolonged or put through pains un-necessarily. So they will have to go to France to chose to die.
2 � There will be so much shortage of things in the world that more will die of hunger than the ones you would save.

In Muslims countries when someone is really suffering due to disease, old age or any other reason, when their life becomes undignified for their own liking. We pray that Oh Allah make things easy for this person, Have your blessing upon them. If life is good, then please cure them, however if death is the only way to ease things for them, then make things easy and have mercy on them.