Catholics fear creation of Frankenstein

[ruby27]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scien ce/article3607660.ece

This is a genuine question rather than a veiled or not so veiled attack on those with religious views.

Whilst I can understand (even if I don't agree with the views of those that are anti abortion), I can not quite understand why the church (parts of Catholic anyway), are so concerned about this bill. My very scanty knowledge by listening to Prof Blakemore indicates that this method will use more adult cells rather than growing new cells which some fear is new life and therefore harming a human, playing at god.

So apart from wanting any new scientific venture to be rigorously examined, what is the real concern about this approach to medical research?

[LoftyLottie]

Interesting Keyplus. In principle I seem to be agreement with the teachings you talk of. However, I am a hypocrite as I can honestly say that my beliefs would be put to the test when it comes to my own loved ones. However, having seen a very loved parent endure an extra year of life due to the advance of science, I can honestly say that extra year was not wanted by him or by our family and only delayed the inevitable and caused more suffering.

As I said earlier, I am not religious in that I don't follow any particular 'faith'. I do, however, have a very deep instinctive feeling that what is happening is not for the overall good of the human race.

[Octavius]

Yes, well that it is all tickety-boo and nice and stuff, but medical intervention is often required. If you are saying that their life is prolonged because it is not their time, then you must also be saying that scientists and doctors are carrying out the will of God in order to sustain the life that was not meant to be given up yet. It is not only divine intervention is it?

Or are you not saying that at all?

[LoftyLottie]

I don't really know what I am saying, do I ;o)? I think I have been truthful in saying that extending life and trying to cure all ills is not for the benefit of mankind or indeed the earth in general.

All I know is that a parent experienced more suffering than they should have due to intervention which a decade or two wouldn't have taken place. It was known that the intervention would not prevent death but just extend life. On reflection, earlier death would have been a more dignified and happier release for all parties.

[Octavius]

No worries Lotty, that was aimed at keyplus' post, but you sneaked a little post in there before me.

[Octavius]

er..... Lottie (sorry)

[Gromit]

It is worth remembering that a lot of medical knowledge and techniques which we take for granted today, were developed when such research was illegal. Grave robbing suppling the material for research.

[keyplus90]

Octavius - Yes there is truth and it is desired that you want a cure for your loved ones. I agree 100% with that. Even God says that you should never be disappointed and loose hope. Medical attention, prayer these are all things you do and of course you should. Because I have seen people getting better once doctors had told that there was no hope, and of course vice versa. But what I really meant was that I do not think you can prolong life. If we could then we would have avoided death.

[naomi24]

Of course we can't avoid eventual death - but few would refuse life saving treatment if it gave them more quality time - and note I say 'quality' time. Additionally, we seem to forget it's not only old people who die. What about babies born with life threatening conditions? Who would refuse to save a baby's life if the only treatment available came from this sort of research?

Keyplus, at the risk of contradicting you yet again, everything I say is not a contradiction. I only contradict those I disagree with - as do you.

[Octavius]

Prolonging life means deferring death. I believe that with the intervention of medical assitance and established procedures / medicines that this has/is/can be achieved.

Of course ultimately we are not yet able to avoid death - and not entirely sure I would want to - but surely you can accept that deferment of death (resuscitation etc) whilst possibly might be the will of God, it must also be the application of medical knowledge.

[keyplus90]

Octavius - I agree with you but I think we are saying same thing but in different words. I am saying that we can not prolong life. If we could then no one would die. However if because of the treatment person stays alive then you will call it prolonging a life and I would say that it is not his time yet. Reason for that is as I said I have seen people surviving when there was no hope at all and people dying when there was "all clear" given by the doctors. So in simple words we people can only try but end result "few people like it or they don't " is in the hands of God as far as death is concerned. Of course as I said, treatment is necessary.

Naomi - I am not talking only about old but for anyone. My own sister has two disabled kids, one of them is 9 years old but he can not sit, can not eat properly, he is partially blind, can not speak, and has no control on urination and so on. Of course my sister loves him more than other kids as she knows he needs attention all the times. That is what you expect from a mother. But as �lofty Lottie� said that few words you do not want to speak but sometimes death is better than certain kind of life for the person in question and the others around him.

[Octavius]

I consider both. When my mother was rushed into hospital a year ago and close to death, I believe that the skill and application of the medical profession as well as perhaps some divine intervention kept her alive. I would probably not chance my arm with one or the other, when both are available, I�ll take both. Maybe it was not her time, maybe the doctors knew what they were doing, but I would hazard a guess that without them, she wouldn�t be here today. If that is the will of your God or my God or her God, then praise be.

[keyplus90]

Octavius - That is exactly 100% what I have said.

[Le Chat]

I think the concern is this: Somewhere along the line, maybe not now, maybe in the next 10/20 yrs, there will exist a scientist who will not be able to resist the temptation to actually try to create a hybrid being ....and this bill will be the 'unleashing' of something which could eventually result in a weird and frightening species...which will then go on to cause destruction to all mankind!

[jake-the-peg]

All this emotive talk of opening the door to Frankenstein monsters!

The bill specifically prohibits the keeping of embryos past 14 days.

The reason the Catholic Church is so upset is because they keep insisting that life begins at conception so these interspecies embryos are "life to them"

Frankly I can do no better than echo Germaine Greer who asked if given the number of fertilised eggs that fail to implant, whether women should therefore administer the last rites to their sanitary towels!


This work has direct impact on dreadfully dibilitating conditions such as Parkinsons and we should not stand in the way of it for emotive superstitious or "instinctive" reasons.

[naomi24]

Jake, absolutely!

Keyplus, just for argument's sake, if research such as this could cure your nephew, would you agree to its results being used to treat him, or would you rather he continue to suffer?

Le Chat, At the moment we are only talking of medical research. I don't know about the creation of a hybrid that will result in the destruction of mankind - but I certainly think that scientists may well be tempted to create living hybrids - and of course, that may prove to be cause for concern.

[Octavius]

Jake, that�s more or less what I said in my 2nd answer.

[mallymooface]

Ruby, the only comment I have to make is that I feel that whilst the Bishop is fully entitled to his view point, preaching it from the pulpit as though it is God's view point is dodgy ground. If he wants to get politcal, that is his right, and he is in a priviledged enough position to debate his view point in a more constructive way. And he should be encouraging his congregation to do likewise. Not scaremongering and using his position to tell people what to think! It is an abuse of position. If he is so convicted by this then he should be thinking of a career change. Do good where it matters, not from behind his pulpit!

[keyplus90]

Naomi - To answer your question, yet once again I will repeat what I have said about 10 times on this thread. Research and development if it is used for good purposes with all the genuine mistakes as well then it has no problem. But if it becomes as Le Chat - said

"I think the concern is this: Somewhere along the line, maybe not now, maybe in the next 10/20 yrs, there will exist a scientist who will not be able to resist the temptation to actually try to create a hybrid being ....and this bill will be the 'unleashing' of something which could eventually result in a weird and frightening species...which will then go on to cause destruction to all mankind!"

Then of course its consequences will be just like when human invented weapons, Atomic energy and so on. These are good things if used for good and sincere purpose, and can create havoc if misused. And usually It is human who always misuse the blessings to create evil out of that. Animal do not do that.

[ruby27]

Thanks for the input on this, I am so far removed from thinking of cells being a live sentient being that I had failed to consider to some people that embryo's are.

I read and enjoy G Greer, but hadn't come across that point before. Few women I suspect could get too agitated about fertile embryos for that very reason. Interesting that it appears that most of the dissenters about this are men, maybe there are women who are equally concerned but perhaps just not as vocal; or maybe something to do with men wanting to control an arena not fully in their control.

[naomi24]

So, Keyplus Should the research continue, or should we stop here just in case in twenty years time some potty scientist takes it too far?

Ruby Could be something to do with women being far more sensible. ;o) Ducks and scoots as fast as her legs will carry her!