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Since Naomi will not give me the ****ing key I have decided to follow Jesus and be a Christian just like Theland. I am ashamed of my past history here so I'm going to devote the time I used to spend on ab to reading the Bible. No question really because I no longer care about what people think. I'll get all my answers from God from now on thank you.
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For the record I have no desire to and believe no real benefits are to be gained by forcing "my views on reality" on anyone. I seek the benefits that can only be provided by interacting freely with another active, willing mind to the extent that such interpersonal interaction can be achieved for the sake of mutual benefit.
Reality is neither grasped not communicated through dictation but through the understanding that comes from relating to mutually shared perceptions of reality. I am not here to debate hearsay. If we can not relate some/any-thing to our own experience there is no basis upon which to achieve understanding.
Reality is neither grasped not communicated through dictation but through the understanding that comes from relating to mutually shared perceptions of reality. I am not here to debate hearsay. If we can not relate some/any-thing to our own experience there is no basis upon which to achieve understanding.
Given that we exist in a universe that manifests itself in concepts such as relativity and quantum mechanics, I would question if there is an objective reality, or is it dependent on our participation and observation for its existence and direction, so that it exists at least in part subjectively.
Like the uncertainty principle with regards to a particle, where we can know its velocity or position, but not both, as the act of observation / measurement alters the particles' properties. Therefore, it could, but not necessarily would, be the case that our active involvement in reality, affects reality and perception, and could mislead us into thinking that our subjective experiences are in fact independent objective entities that exist of their own volition.
How could we know the difference?
How could I possibly know that my experience of reality is the same experience that everybody else has?
Yes, it is generally accepted that for the most part we experience reality through our five senses. But this leaves out other possible sources of information.
Who can definitively deny the reality of revelation, when the acquisition of such knowledge can not be demonstrated or tested?
Such testing already assumes a mechanistic overview of reality, and disallows the possibility of fluidity and a more clustered and less homogeneous state within which we exist.
(continued)
Like the uncertainty principle with regards to a particle, where we can know its velocity or position, but not both, as the act of observation / measurement alters the particles' properties. Therefore, it could, but not necessarily would, be the case that our active involvement in reality, affects reality and perception, and could mislead us into thinking that our subjective experiences are in fact independent objective entities that exist of their own volition.
How could we know the difference?
How could I possibly know that my experience of reality is the same experience that everybody else has?
Yes, it is generally accepted that for the most part we experience reality through our five senses. But this leaves out other possible sources of information.
Who can definitively deny the reality of revelation, when the acquisition of such knowledge can not be demonstrated or tested?
Such testing already assumes a mechanistic overview of reality, and disallows the possibility of fluidity and a more clustered and less homogeneous state within which we exist.
(continued)
(continued)
Have not the philosophers wrestled with the problems of language, simply because of its subjectivity, and the necessity, or at least the desirability of an objective, neutral mode of expression, that language simply fails to address?
So, already there is a problem when even trying to identify the nature of reality, part of which is the accumulation of knowledge, from various sources.
I do not think that we could ever be in full agreement about the nature of reality, other than to say that in general, it is perceived as being objective, but that this is open to question.
Have not the philosophers wrestled with the problems of language, simply because of its subjectivity, and the necessity, or at least the desirability of an objective, neutral mode of expression, that language simply fails to address?
So, already there is a problem when even trying to identify the nature of reality, part of which is the accumulation of knowledge, from various sources.
I do not think that we could ever be in full agreement about the nature of reality, other than to say that in general, it is perceived as being objective, but that this is open to question.
(continued)
Can we even trust our senses to provide information that is universally obtainable?
We can discuss and evaluate the person that is born profoundly deaf, or blind, who loses the sense of smell and / or taste, or becomes paralysed and loses the sense of touch, but what about the person who claims to have extra sensory perception? Just one example will suffice for this.
There have always been people who have claimed to have the gift of seeing an aura around all living things, and from this to determine health problems. Such people may have been dismissed as charlatans, until the discovery of Kirlian photography, that actually captures the auras on photographic plate.
Now this illustrates how some people have an added window on reality, that is exclusive to a minority group.
This begs the question, if this gift for this group, are there other, "gifts" that affect other groups? Should we dismiss the possibility simply because it has always been outside of our experience?
Very heavy tomes have doubtless been written on this subject, and I think it is futile to try to emulate them here. Suffice to say thet there are question marks over the nature of reality itself, and that is something I would like us to agree on.
Can we even trust our senses to provide information that is universally obtainable?
We can discuss and evaluate the person that is born profoundly deaf, or blind, who loses the sense of smell and / or taste, or becomes paralysed and loses the sense of touch, but what about the person who claims to have extra sensory perception? Just one example will suffice for this.
There have always been people who have claimed to have the gift of seeing an aura around all living things, and from this to determine health problems. Such people may have been dismissed as charlatans, until the discovery of Kirlian photography, that actually captures the auras on photographic plate.
Now this illustrates how some people have an added window on reality, that is exclusive to a minority group.
This begs the question, if this gift for this group, are there other, "gifts" that affect other groups? Should we dismiss the possibility simply because it has always been outside of our experience?
Very heavy tomes have doubtless been written on this subject, and I think it is futile to try to emulate them here. Suffice to say thet there are question marks over the nature of reality itself, and that is something I would like us to agree on.
Naomi, My son had his minor surgery and is feeling much better, hopefully this will encourage further and complete healing.
As for my notorious luck, well I am going to think positive from now on and give these up.
As for my notorious luck, well I am going to think positive from now on and give these up.
It's been very lonely on here tonight
I'm sorry this is a short answer, but I'm still in dashing around mode! There can only be one ultimate reality, but the fundamental question is, do we really know what that is - or do we have a lot to learn? Mibs, you speak of 'chemically altered states of conscious', but what if, as Theland suggests, some people do possess senses outside what we would consider to be the 'norm'? As unrealistic as it may seem to those who haven't shared similar experiences, what if those experiences are, in fact, genuine? What if there is more to life than we know or understand. Would you consider that possibility?
Theland, your son's health WILL improve. Positive thinking, my lad!
Theland, your son's health WILL improve. Positive thinking, my lad!
Naomi, dont run around, use these
Theland, What is the point in playing with a deck of cards where an ace is not an ace and a spade is not a spade; a deck consisting of 52 wild cards? Refusing to accept that A is A consigns you to a world in which anything goes and cries for justice or mercy fall on deaf ears.
By stirring up the mud on already settled questions you render the waters impenetrable to any further view of what lies between the surface and the bottom. You paint a mental image that reeks of an acid not designed to dissolve away impurities but to destroy the evidence.
I am not content to revel in my loneliness, I seek friendship but unlike Jesus there comes a time when I will no longer offer my hand to be once more slapped away. I have no desire to sacrifice my friendship for the sake of one which seeks to have no meaning nor do I wish to squander the resources of my mind to one that is so finely tuned to its own destruction. I seek common ground and you offer me only quicksand. You are abstruse with �concepts� that are less easy to grasp than a fish out of water and make useless any attempts to fathom the shallowest of streams.
By stirring up the mud on already settled questions you render the waters impenetrable to any further view of what lies between the surface and the bottom. You paint a mental image that reeks of an acid not designed to dissolve away impurities but to destroy the evidence.
I am not content to revel in my loneliness, I seek friendship but unlike Jesus there comes a time when I will no longer offer my hand to be once more slapped away. I have no desire to sacrifice my friendship for the sake of one which seeks to have no meaning nor do I wish to squander the resources of my mind to one that is so finely tuned to its own destruction. I seek common ground and you offer me only quicksand. You are abstruse with �concepts� that are less easy to grasp than a fish out of water and make useless any attempts to fathom the shallowest of streams.
The ability to grasp reality through integrating the knowledge provided by our five senses has taken us out of the cave and to the Moon. I can see why such evidence of the power of reason has no meaning to one who will not settle for anything less than the delusion of heaven but I will not settle for any delusion over the joy of bringing into reality a value however meager in comparison to a spiteful wish, something of value that did not previously exist.
You have made reality your enemy by refusing to learn about and operate within it laws and you have made reason your enemy by scoffing at its power to comprehend and understand the reality you despise. You have chosen to make your life not a joy to have experienced but a torture to endure until you fully realise the end you seek the unconscious oblivion of death.
If you do not wish to investigate the means by which we gain and validate knowledge of reality I suspect that you harbour beliefs you would rather not bring into question. Have it your way. But the suggestion that knowledge can not be obtained is tantamount to sticking your own foot in your mouth, a posture which one should not take when trying to speak coherently.
You have made reality your enemy by refusing to learn about and operate within it laws and you have made reason your enemy by scoffing at its power to comprehend and understand the reality you despise. You have chosen to make your life not a joy to have experienced but a torture to endure until you fully realise the end you seek the unconscious oblivion of death.
If you do not wish to investigate the means by which we gain and validate knowledge of reality I suspect that you harbour beliefs you would rather not bring into question. Have it your way. But the suggestion that knowledge can not be obtained is tantamount to sticking your own foot in your mouth, a posture which one should not take when trying to speak coherently.
It certainly is a painful experience to stand up and be counted. To question whatever wisdom is in vogue, and to dare to espouse ones own beliefs, or even tentatively peer over the parapet, is to invite a fusilade of ridicule.
Be that as it may, I still firmly believe that I am right to question the very basis of our perceived reality.
By the way, I may not be singing from the rooftops at the joy of existing, but neither am I haunted and worriesome at the prospect of eventual death, not do I, as it seems to be suggested, conspire to escape it.
Be that as it may, I still firmly believe that I am right to question the very basis of our perceived reality.
By the way, I may not be singing from the rooftops at the joy of existing, but neither am I haunted and worriesome at the prospect of eventual death, not do I, as it seems to be suggested, conspire to escape it.
To question is sensible. To hear the answer is important. To actually listen to what is being said takes patience. To understand requires meetiing on a leve and doing all of the abovel.
And to agree sometimes means accepting differences and finding another way. Rather like the path the brain takes to move in a stroke victim(eg) revcovering movment.
And to agree sometimes means accepting differences and finding another way. Rather like the path the brain takes to move in a stroke victim(eg) revcovering movment.
Naomi, Reality is fluid, dynamic and ever changing but what we have learned about it has shown us ways to alter its course in ways that enable us to better support and enrich our lives. This is why I pursue learning what I can about it.
I have discovered that the information I receive from the five senses I know about can be integrated into a coherent picture of elements that do not contradict each other. It is entirely possible that we possess more than five senses, (a sense of time and a sense of fairness are not that far fetched although these are more of an analytical nature based on an integration of sense perceptions). Other species have means of sensing data stimulated by reality that we do not, however they can typically be associated with modifications or refinements of our own sensory organs.
I am not so much opposed to the possibility of other senses as I am to the suggestion of one which contradicts the evidence of the ones I know and cherish. Claims of extrasensory perception however stimulate my sense foul play as so many have been shown to be unverifiable or simply due to anomalies of our existing perceptual systems; (one to many cries of wolf). Given such a consistent history of deception I am bound to view any future claims with a high degree of skepticism until such claims are reconciled with the consistent knowledge more reliable perceptions have provided.
I have discovered that the information I receive from the five senses I know about can be integrated into a coherent picture of elements that do not contradict each other. It is entirely possible that we possess more than five senses, (a sense of time and a sense of fairness are not that far fetched although these are more of an analytical nature based on an integration of sense perceptions). Other species have means of sensing data stimulated by reality that we do not, however they can typically be associated with modifications or refinements of our own sensory organs.
I am not so much opposed to the possibility of other senses as I am to the suggestion of one which contradicts the evidence of the ones I know and cherish. Claims of extrasensory perception however stimulate my sense foul play as so many have been shown to be unverifiable or simply due to anomalies of our existing perceptual systems; (one to many cries of wolf). Given such a consistent history of deception I am bound to view any future claims with a high degree of skepticism until such claims are reconciled with the consistent knowledge more reliable perceptions have provided.
It is the attempts of extra-sensory purveyors to discredit the validity of the reality my physically examinable senses provide me knowledge of and their disingenuous attempts to ride coat tail on the reputation of legitimate science that I find morally offensive and intellectually repulsive. If I offered a claim of extra-sensory perception given the history of such claims I would fully anticipate and expect a kick in the pants out the door. Better have some solid proof at the ready and well in hand.
My initial response to the disclosure of your beliefs in the actions of disembodied spirits and unexplained methods of predicting future events was one of surprise that they came from a person who so vehemently opposed one form of mysticism yet seemed quite comfortable with other versions. If I were to attribute similar experiences to such phenomena I would understand and expect the same kind of shock and awe response you received to those announcements rather than incredulity that one should respond to such claims in a similar manner.
I have since learned that your rejection of the god which you were exposed to through religion was not of the existence of a god by virtue of its mystical qualities but based on your rejection of the possibility that a god would behave in the manner depicted by that religion. Now that I better understand the basis of your beliefs I have resolved this apparent contradiction.
My initial response to the disclosure of your beliefs in the actions of disembodied spirits and unexplained methods of predicting future events was one of surprise that they came from a person who so vehemently opposed one form of mysticism yet seemed quite comfortable with other versions. If I were to attribute similar experiences to such phenomena I would understand and expect the same kind of shock and awe response you received to those announcements rather than incredulity that one should respond to such claims in a similar manner.
I have since learned that your rejection of the god which you were exposed to through religion was not of the existence of a god by virtue of its mystical qualities but based on your rejection of the possibility that a god would behave in the manner depicted by that religion. Now that I better understand the basis of your beliefs I have resolved this apparent contradiction.
Although we share in our rejection of the God of the Bible, your rejection is more metaphysical rather than ontological; that is you do not reject the existence of god based on the methods by which knowledge is acquired and verified but reject the notion that God could exist in a specific form. While your approach appears to satisfy your needs I have of necessity sought and acquired a more universal means to discredit the existence of any kind of supernatural being.
I have reason to doubt that such a proof is of interest to you in that it might expose conflicts between a host of other beliefs that you hold dear and I have yet to persuade you of the importance of being able to refute the arguments of those who are seeking to gain a grip over humanity by discrediting and dismantling our means of discerning the true nature of reality. Until you fully realise just how important winning this war against reason is and the consequences of failing to do so I regret the need to put the ghosts and phantoms already unleashed by the attackers of reason back into Pandora�s Box will not be made real enough to you to justify in your mind the efforts required to do so. Given my knowledge of the nature, scope and continuous proliferation of the dire consequences of this threat to the survival and well-being of humanity, I must (and will continue to) try harder. I only regret that I have but one life to devote to this valiant goal and that I must devote so much time to the process of maintaining it. I welcome any assistance you care to offer in achieving this mutually beneficial task.
I have reason to doubt that such a proof is of interest to you in that it might expose conflicts between a host of other beliefs that you hold dear and I have yet to persuade you of the importance of being able to refute the arguments of those who are seeking to gain a grip over humanity by discrediting and dismantling our means of discerning the true nature of reality. Until you fully realise just how important winning this war against reason is and the consequences of failing to do so I regret the need to put the ghosts and phantoms already unleashed by the attackers of reason back into Pandora�s Box will not be made real enough to you to justify in your mind the efforts required to do so. Given my knowledge of the nature, scope and continuous proliferation of the dire consequences of this threat to the survival and well-being of humanity, I must (and will continue to) try harder. I only regret that I have but one life to devote to this valiant goal and that I must devote so much time to the process of maintaining it. I welcome any assistance you care to offer in achieving this mutually beneficial task.
In that case my love, you think way too much! (Although, that said, at least you know the answers to some of your ponderings).
I really don't want to get involved with the reality debate, I know we've done it more than once on here and probably you and I have covered it extensively too. I think agreeing to the five senses that you all are known to have and going from there is probably a good start. You can move on to six, seven and eight later and then I may join you.
On a completely unrelated topic. I got offered a job last thursday.
I really don't want to get involved with the reality debate, I know we've done it more than once on here and probably you and I have covered it extensively too. I think agreeing to the five senses that you all are known to have and going from there is probably a good start. You can move on to six, seven and eight later and then I may join you.
On a completely unrelated topic. I got offered a job last thursday.
No, China! We can never think too much.
I'm so sorry, everyone. My life is in a huge whirl at the moment - I'm practically meeting myself coming back (now there's an unexplained phenomenon!) - and I simply cannot give this the time it deserves. I'll come back in the morning, when I've rested, before the phone starts to ring, and when my brain is a little more coherent (hopefully).
Good night. Sweet dreams - and many kisses to you. x
I'm so sorry, everyone. My life is in a huge whirl at the moment - I'm practically meeting myself coming back (now there's an unexplained phenomenon!) - and I simply cannot give this the time it deserves. I'll come back in the morning, when I've rested, before the phone starts to ring, and when my brain is a little more coherent (hopefully).
Good night. Sweet dreams - and many kisses to you. x
Great news China. What's the job? Is it what you were looking for?
I applied for a couple but heard nothing yet.
I have to see my GP on Thursday, and am considering getting signed off incapacity benefit, and going on to job seekers allowance, for as short a time as possible, and then getting their huge bureaucratic machine to find me a job, any job, any money, just something to get me earning again.
I applied for a couple but heard nothing yet.
I have to see my GP on Thursday, and am considering getting signed off incapacity benefit, and going on to job seekers allowance, for as short a time as possible, and then getting their huge bureaucratic machine to find me a job, any job, any money, just something to get me earning again.
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