Sunday Express Skeleton 24Th November...
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Why are you an atheist?
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Keyplus asked me the question below on another thread, but I think it's interesting enough to warrant a thread of its own.
I am sure you and many others have accepted here that they changed their mind at some stage of life. Did that change of mind take place after they had a dream or got struck by lightining? Or did that happen because they yet again heard, saw or learnt something new that proved previous things wrong.
I changed my mind about religion because I investigated other possibilities, and learnt that my previous beliefs had been misguided and inaccurate. What about you?
I am sure you and many others have accepted here that they changed their mind at some stage of life. Did that change of mind take place after they had a dream or got struck by lightining? Or did that happen because they yet again heard, saw or learnt something new that proved previous things wrong.
I changed my mind about religion because I investigated other possibilities, and learnt that my previous beliefs had been misguided and inaccurate. What about you?
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I studied a combination of history and education at uni as a mature student. The two subjects covered a fair amount of philosophy between them too. It became very clear to me how much religion has been used over the centuries to keep the masses down and make them into what the ruling classes want them to be.
Studying history also taught me to stand back and take a wider view of things, and how to discriminate fact from opinion and legend. Look at the whole 'god' thing in that light, and the argument becomes pretty weak.
Studying history also taught me to stand back and take a wider view of things, and how to discriminate fact from opinion and legend. Look at the whole 'god' thing in that light, and the argument becomes pretty weak.
"I changed my mind about religion because I investigated other possibilities, and learnt that my previous beliefs had been misguided and inaccurate. What about you?"
I guess that sums it up for me too. Brought up a Catholic, I realised that I believed little of it, and actually educating myself in religious matters confirmed that 99% of organised religion is bunk. That said, I feel that if anyone gets anything out of their beliefs then that in itself serves a fine purpose. Unfortunately, a lot of people suffer due to being indoctrinated in belief systems that rely on the concepts of sin, guilt and fear.
I guess that sums it up for me too. Brought up a Catholic, I realised that I believed little of it, and actually educating myself in religious matters confirmed that 99% of organised religion is bunk. That said, I feel that if anyone gets anything out of their beliefs then that in itself serves a fine purpose. Unfortunately, a lot of people suffer due to being indoctrinated in belief systems that rely on the concepts of sin, guilt and fear.
I was raised a catholic but I never had that kind of leap of faith in me to believe in a God. As I got older and learnt more about history, religion, politcs etc I found myself angry at organised religion. Not so much that I'm against people having it but I'm against how they subvert and twist what essentially aren't bad rules to live by... love thy neighbours, treat others with respect and all that malarky. The idea of using God as a stick to beat people with or to stop medical process because you don't agree with it is at the very least distasteful to me.
However essentially I've never believed in a divine power. I do believe however that there is a collective human conscience and that you invite certain elements in to your life. I think this can sometimes seem like fate or divine intervention.
I don't think people who do have a faith or a belief are stupid or misguided, I think each to their own and as long as it keeps them happy and they're doing no harm to others then it's really up to them. I even envy it a little bit in some ways, I'm sure it's nice to have that kind of certainty in your life. It's just to me it's all smoke and mirrors.
However essentially I've never believed in a divine power. I do believe however that there is a collective human conscience and that you invite certain elements in to your life. I think this can sometimes seem like fate or divine intervention.
I don't think people who do have a faith or a belief are stupid or misguided, I think each to their own and as long as it keeps them happy and they're doing no harm to others then it's really up to them. I even envy it a little bit in some ways, I'm sure it's nice to have that kind of certainty in your life. It's just to me it's all smoke and mirrors.
On Sept. 3rd 2007 I saw and heard something which flew in the face of common sense and turned every belief I took for granted on its head. I'm not going to go into details here but it shattered my entire notion of love, life and death and I cannot think up a 'plausible reason' for its occurrence.
In itself the event does not make me a believer in 'God' but it made me realise that there must be the possibility of other realities or existences intertwined with the one we live in.
I can grasp the notion that there could be 'something' and while I don't believe in a Christian 'loving God' who guides and watches over me I sense that there must be 'intelligence' ( not necessarily with a personality ) at work in the universe....and then again, I look back over what happened on the day and wonder 'why me?' , after all, the event I refer to could only have been engineered by, or with the assistance of, an 'outside agency' and I don't mean alcohol or drugs.
You speak as you find. I was profoundly affected by my experience and the shock I received at that time affects me now as strongly as it did then. A couple of years ago I would have happily joined with the naysayers and mickey-takers but after seeing my world-view disappear down the plughole never to return, it made a different, and I think, a happier man out of me.
In itself the event does not make me a believer in 'God' but it made me realise that there must be the possibility of other realities or existences intertwined with the one we live in.
I can grasp the notion that there could be 'something' and while I don't believe in a Christian 'loving God' who guides and watches over me I sense that there must be 'intelligence' ( not necessarily with a personality ) at work in the universe....and then again, I look back over what happened on the day and wonder 'why me?' , after all, the event I refer to could only have been engineered by, or with the assistance of, an 'outside agency' and I don't mean alcohol or drugs.
You speak as you find. I was profoundly affected by my experience and the shock I received at that time affects me now as strongly as it did then. A couple of years ago I would have happily joined with the naysayers and mickey-takers but after seeing my world-view disappear down the plughole never to return, it made a different, and I think, a happier man out of me.
I became an athiest as far as i remember because the notion of a God ruling everything seemed too ridiculous to mention.
Later on I realised that that wasn't a particularly good reason but stayed an athiest because of the notion of the immortal soul.
The Immortal soul is a concept common to all religions even Budhism and is clearly an illusion.
The more you think about it the more evasive and nonsensical it becomes but simply put anything that comes into being goes out of existance - there was no life before birth why should there be life after death?
I'm with Einstein who called religions incarnations of our childish superstitions
Later on I realised that that wasn't a particularly good reason but stayed an athiest because of the notion of the immortal soul.
The Immortal soul is a concept common to all religions even Budhism and is clearly an illusion.
The more you think about it the more evasive and nonsensical it becomes but simply put anything that comes into being goes out of existance - there was no life before birth why should there be life after death?
I'm with Einstein who called religions incarnations of our childish superstitions
�I changed my mind about religion because I investigated other possibilities, and learnt that my previous beliefs had been misguided and inaccurate.�
That goes some way to explain why you might be non-religious or reject �organised religion�, but not why you are an atheist. Are you trying to establish why people do not agree with organised religion, or why they simply believe that a supernatural being or entity does not exist? And I am not just referring to the �God of the Bible�.
That goes some way to explain why you might be non-religious or reject �organised religion�, but not why you are an atheist. Are you trying to establish why people do not agree with organised religion, or why they simply believe that a supernatural being or entity does not exist? And I am not just referring to the �God of the Bible�.
Surely on these pages, aligning oneself as an atheist means just that................a rejection of the notion of Yahweh, in addition to other 'named' gods.
The belief that there may be something spiritual floating in the ether and somehow guiding our lives is too nebulous for those religionists on these pages.
They demand proof, circumstance and instances.........all very difficult to provide. Almost as difficult as providing evidence for the divine providence of Yahweh..............
My reasons are precisely as those entirely sensible answers given by the contributors posting above me.
The belief that there may be something spiritual floating in the ether and somehow guiding our lives is too nebulous for those religionists on these pages.
They demand proof, circumstance and instances.........all very difficult to provide. Almost as difficult as providing evidence for the divine providence of Yahweh..............
My reasons are precisely as those entirely sensible answers given by the contributors posting above me.
I became an Athiest because when Aberfan happened I was 10/11 and as it was nearly all children, I couldn't understand what they could have done to warrent God leaving tham like this, so I asked every adult I knew WHY?
and nobody had the answer.
Even when they tried to give me an answer even little me could see they really didn't have an answer, because everything contradicted the God knows all, God is love etc line.
So you get the old God moves in mysterious ways which to be frank is total B*****s, its just religionese for I don't know.
I saw a documentary about the disaster last year and I know i was right to turn my back on any Theist belief.
The only small, small small, thing to come out of it, for me, was a nice healthy rational scepticism.
and nobody had the answer.
Even when they tried to give me an answer even little me could see they really didn't have an answer, because everything contradicted the God knows all, God is love etc line.
So you get the old God moves in mysterious ways which to be frank is total B*****s, its just religionese for I don't know.
I saw a documentary about the disaster last year and I know i was right to turn my back on any Theist belief.
The only small, small small, thing to come out of it, for me, was a nice healthy rational scepticism.
Precisely Hatless, so rejecting mainstream religions with �named� gods, doesn�t necessarily mean you are an atheist does it? Or does belief in a supernatural �being/entity� or ethereal spiritual guide with no �name� also mean you are an atheist? It amuses me to the heavens, that you sneer the religionists for not understanding nebulous beliefs.
I understand like religion atheism has many forms and individual interpretation, but I think atheism based on a rejection of the dogma of organised religion is slightly different to denying the existence of spiritual entities isn�t it?
Dave, you mentioned Aberfan before, and as I said I completely understand why that would lead you to conclude that there can be no gods or any spiritual entities guiding and controlling our existence.
I understand like religion atheism has many forms and individual interpretation, but I think atheism based on a rejection of the dogma of organised religion is slightly different to denying the existence of spiritual entities isn�t it?
Dave, you mentioned Aberfan before, and as I said I completely understand why that would lead you to conclude that there can be no gods or any spiritual entities guiding and controlling our existence.
(I became an Athiest because when Aberfan happened I was 10/11 and as it was nearly all children, I couldn't understand what they could have done to warrent God leaving tham like this, so I asked every adult I knew WHY?
and nobody had the answer.)
Hi Dave
I do not remember Aberfan but my mum did, she once told me that she could not think of the day without crying. I understood after the Dumblane shootings. I cried for weeks and my children were at school at the time and I hugged them tighter and loved them more.
But when we discussed it at work a collegue said, where was God? I replied God was in the out pouring of love and grief, it was tangible. Do you remember the people who fought to save strangers lives? How emergency services worked overtime and donated that overtime money. How thousands were donated straight away. That collective joining in doing everything possible to help, that is where God was. Feel about religion what you will. When disaster strikes people pray to God for assistance and God moves in us. I do not know why we have to help, and want to help and risk ourselves to do it. But that is where I feel God in me and those around me. x
and nobody had the answer.)
Hi Dave
I do not remember Aberfan but my mum did, she once told me that she could not think of the day without crying. I understood after the Dumblane shootings. I cried for weeks and my children were at school at the time and I hugged them tighter and loved them more.
But when we discussed it at work a collegue said, where was God? I replied God was in the out pouring of love and grief, it was tangible. Do you remember the people who fought to save strangers lives? How emergency services worked overtime and donated that overtime money. How thousands were donated straight away. That collective joining in doing everything possible to help, that is where God was. Feel about religion what you will. When disaster strikes people pray to God for assistance and God moves in us. I do not know why we have to help, and want to help and risk ourselves to do it. But that is where I feel God in me and those around me. x
I'm glad to have amused you, Octavius.
Perhaps your definition or understanding of being an atheist is different from mine.........?
"Atheism, as an explicit position, can be either the affirmation of the nonexistence of gods,or the rejection of theism. It is also defined more broadly as an absence of belief in deities, or nontheism.
Many self-described atheists are skeptical of all supernatural beings and cite a lack of empirical evidence for the existence of deities. Others argue for atheism on philosophical, social or historical grounds. Although many self-described atheists tend toward secular philosophies such as humanism and naturalism, there is no one ideology or set of behaviors to which all atheists adhere; and some religions, such as Jainism and Buddhism, do not require belief in a personal god.
The term atheism originated as a pejorative epithet applied to any person or belief in conflict with established religion. With the spread of freethought, scientific skepticism, and criticism of religion, the term began to gather a more specific meaning and has been increasingly used as a self-description by atheists."
I apologise for the cut and paste Wikipedia explanation, but it absolutely agrees with my point of view............and I'm a little too busy and distracted to formulate an explanation which would stand up to your scrutiny :o)
Perhaps your definition or understanding of being an atheist is different from mine.........?
"Atheism, as an explicit position, can be either the affirmation of the nonexistence of gods,or the rejection of theism. It is also defined more broadly as an absence of belief in deities, or nontheism.
Many self-described atheists are skeptical of all supernatural beings and cite a lack of empirical evidence for the existence of deities. Others argue for atheism on philosophical, social or historical grounds. Although many self-described atheists tend toward secular philosophies such as humanism and naturalism, there is no one ideology or set of behaviors to which all atheists adhere; and some religions, such as Jainism and Buddhism, do not require belief in a personal god.
The term atheism originated as a pejorative epithet applied to any person or belief in conflict with established religion. With the spread of freethought, scientific skepticism, and criticism of religion, the term began to gather a more specific meaning and has been increasingly used as a self-description by atheists."
I apologise for the cut and paste Wikipedia explanation, but it absolutely agrees with my point of view............and I'm a little too busy and distracted to formulate an explanation which would stand up to your scrutiny :o)
Anna,
So if God is there why did the children die.
This is like the Americans who after a family of eight were shot and one child survived described it as miracle.
I call it human spirit and desperation, love and hope.
Where was god when the heap fell?
Where was god when everyone went home and those familys were left to mourn.
Where was God when that man who went work with two children a wife and a home and came home to nothing.
Don't try and excuse the humanity in people for god, because he wasn't there.
So if God is there why did the children die.
This is like the Americans who after a family of eight were shot and one child survived described it as miracle.
I call it human spirit and desperation, love and hope.
Where was god when the heap fell?
Where was god when everyone went home and those familys were left to mourn.
Where was God when that man who went work with two children a wife and a home and came home to nothing.
Don't try and excuse the humanity in people for god, because he wasn't there.
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