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Who is God and what do you know about him,
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Over the past year or so since I know, we have gone over accepting or rejecting the existence of God so many times and of course altogether this is not a new topic. But are we really sure what we are accepting or rejecting as God.
Being a Muslim I believe the concept of God is very simple and according to Quran it has been described in only four little sentences.
1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
4. And there is none like unto Him.
Now I do not expect anyone to believe in this definition of God. But my question is that when you refuse God, then what definition or characteristic do you know him by?
Surely even to deny something or someone you must first of all know everything about that subject.
Being a Muslim I believe the concept of God is very simple and according to Quran it has been described in only four little sentences.
1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
4. And there is none like unto Him.
Now I do not expect anyone to believe in this definition of God. But my question is that when you refuse God, then what definition or characteristic do you know him by?
Surely even to deny something or someone you must first of all know everything about that subject.
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God supposedly sent his own son to earth to be sacrificed in order to save humanity. This entire planet has gone crazy, fighting and killing just to prove who has the most power or assets. Where is his intervention now? Apparantly, he will also not only condone but reward the slaughter of thousands as long as they don't believe in him.
If he does exist then he doesn't sound like someone who deserves to be worshipped, whatever form you choose to worship him in!!!
If he does exist then he doesn't sound like someone who deserves to be worshipped, whatever form you choose to worship him in!!!
CJ242 � The part of your post tells me something.
Apparantly, he will also not only condone but reward the slaughter of thousands as long as they don't believe in him.
This is exactly what I am trying to find out. I know in my religion and the book I believe in, does not say this. And I agree with you that if any god tells people to kill others only because they do not believe in him then I would not worship that god either.
Apparantly, he will also not only condone but reward the slaughter of thousands as long as they don't believe in him.
This is exactly what I am trying to find out. I know in my religion and the book I believe in, does not say this. And I agree with you that if any god tells people to kill others only because they do not believe in him then I would not worship that god either.
Oh dear, Keyplus. Perhaps you shouldn't make rash statements. It seems he made a bit of a habit of telling his followers to kill non-believers.
The Koran 8.12
I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
The Bible - Deuteronomy
13:13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; 13:14 Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; 13:15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
The Koran 8.12
I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
The Bible - Deuteronomy
13:13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; 13:14 Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; 13:15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
I can�t take responsibility of bible but as far as Quran 8:12 is concerned and there are many other verses like that in Quran. I can guarantee that you will not agree with my explanation as these have been explained by many and many times.
Just imagine that you have suffered 10 years at others hands and then you migrate to another city 350 miles away leaving everything behind. Still people who pushed you out follows to kill you and you end up against them in a battlefield where you are only 313 without any armoury and the opposition 1000 with every possible weapon available at that time. Only chance you have is fight or die without fight. Now you tell me in that situation what your leader would tell you to uplift your morale.
If you can�t gather that then find out what Churchill said to British army and people when he decided to go in war against Germany. I am sure he and military generals did not say that where ever you see a German soldier just run away and save your life.
Just imagine that you have suffered 10 years at others hands and then you migrate to another city 350 miles away leaving everything behind. Still people who pushed you out follows to kill you and you end up against them in a battlefield where you are only 313 without any armoury and the opposition 1000 with every possible weapon available at that time. Only chance you have is fight or die without fight. Now you tell me in that situation what your leader would tell you to uplift your morale.
If you can�t gather that then find out what Churchill said to British army and people when he decided to go in war against Germany. I am sure he and military generals did not say that where ever you see a German soldier just run away and save your life.
No, you don't need to know everything about something to deny it.
In science a single anomoly disproves a hypothesis. The God hypothesis is full of holes and can therefore be threfore discounted.
While many inaccurate scientific hypotheses do actually prove useful as the foundation for more refined understanding, the God hypothesis is utterly worthless.
In science a single anomoly disproves a hypothesis. The God hypothesis is full of holes and can therefore be threfore discounted.
While many inaccurate scientific hypotheses do actually prove useful as the foundation for more refined understanding, the God hypothesis is utterly worthless.
Interpretation is what someone tells you and you analyse it. If you are not willing to believe in what someone who knows better than you do even when it makes sense then you have already made up your mind with what you knew before hand. Then why bother Naomi?
Beso � According to Christian belief God did rest on seventh, my belief tells me that God does not need resting. Its we human who need sleep, rest exercise etc to keep going. But I do understand what you really are trying to say. Yes it is true that God is not intervening directly since the time of the last prophet as now is the time phase where he has given people something to think about and of course the most important thing, time to think about. However if you do not believe in any prophets still 1400 years or 2000 years is not that a long time when you talk about the universe.
As far as science is concerned, it is one of the main topics of human life but everything is not covered by science. Or you prove me scientifically that your wife/husband or your children love you.
Beso � According to Christian belief God did rest on seventh, my belief tells me that God does not need resting. Its we human who need sleep, rest exercise etc to keep going. But I do understand what you really are trying to say. Yes it is true that God is not intervening directly since the time of the last prophet as now is the time phase where he has given people something to think about and of course the most important thing, time to think about. However if you do not believe in any prophets still 1400 years or 2000 years is not that a long time when you talk about the universe.
As far as science is concerned, it is one of the main topics of human life but everything is not covered by science. Or you prove me scientifically that your wife/husband or your children love you.
Keyplus, why bother? You said you wouldn't worship a God who tells people to kill those who don't believe, so I gave you two examples of your God saying precisely that.
Now that isn't what you want to hear, so you decide to give me an interpretation of it, and turn it into something completely different. I don't need an interpretation. The verse is simple enough and its perfectly clear.
Apart from that, why should anyone know better than anyone else? The Koran isn't an enormous tome - it's easy enough to read. I thought it was supposed to be the infallible word of God anyway, but since you're so eager to change it to suit your own purposes, it clearly isn't quite so infallible as you claim.
Now that isn't what you want to hear, so you decide to give me an interpretation of it, and turn it into something completely different. I don't need an interpretation. The verse is simple enough and its perfectly clear.
Apart from that, why should anyone know better than anyone else? The Koran isn't an enormous tome - it's easy enough to read. I thought it was supposed to be the infallible word of God anyway, but since you're so eager to change it to suit your own purposes, it clearly isn't quite so infallible as you claim.
naomi24
Mon 19/01/09
17:26 Keyplus, why bother? You said you wouldn't worship a God who tells people to kill those who don't believe, so I gave you two examples of your God saying precisely that.
Sometimes I do like the way you pretend that you have made a point. Why bother? Quran is easy to understand��� that is true. Unfortunately Quran is not easy to understand if you are trying to see what you think Quran should say. And that is the beauty of Quran, otherwise there would have been so many versions saying things what people wanted it to say.
You thought that you gave me two examples. And of course you thought that you proved your point because Quran is easy to understand. But you did not think that Allah was not asking Muslims to kill who don�t believe. Allah asked Muslims to kill who come to kill them. Otherwise I wonder 8 years after this battle (where verses are from) Muslims conquered their homeland Mecca again and even at that time there were more None Muslims that Muslims in that city. Why were all those not killed? I know exactly why and so would anyone who would read with open mind, because although they were none believers but they were not enemies in the battlefield.
But I am sure you would find another explanation and the reason for that, I have given in my first paragraph.
But why bother
Mon 19/01/09
17:26 Keyplus, why bother? You said you wouldn't worship a God who tells people to kill those who don't believe, so I gave you two examples of your God saying precisely that.
Sometimes I do like the way you pretend that you have made a point. Why bother? Quran is easy to understand��� that is true. Unfortunately Quran is not easy to understand if you are trying to see what you think Quran should say. And that is the beauty of Quran, otherwise there would have been so many versions saying things what people wanted it to say.
You thought that you gave me two examples. And of course you thought that you proved your point because Quran is easy to understand. But you did not think that Allah was not asking Muslims to kill who don�t believe. Allah asked Muslims to kill who come to kill them. Otherwise I wonder 8 years after this battle (where verses are from) Muslims conquered their homeland Mecca again and even at that time there were more None Muslims that Muslims in that city. Why were all those not killed? I know exactly why and so would anyone who would read with open mind, because although they were none believers but they were not enemies in the battlefield.
But I am sure you would find another explanation and the reason for that, I have given in my first paragraph.
But why bother
Keyplus, Unfortunately Quran is not easy to understand if you are trying to see what you think Quran should say. ....... and judging by your explanation, no one knows that better than you.
I never pretend - as you well know. You were talking about God giving instructions to kill unbelievers, and I gave you a verse saying exactly that.
However, you're now saying that only applies to enemies who are non-believers. Ah .... right. But hang on a minute. If God's aim in this verse was to advise Muslims to kill the enemy, and belief wasn't an issue, then there would be no reason for him to mention 'unbelievers' specifically. Regardless of religion, any warring faction attempts to kill its enemy, so it seems the operative word here has to be 'unbelievers' rather than 'enemies'.
(Wonder what the advice is when Muslims kill Muslims? Just a thought).
And what's the point of saying 'why bother?' That's ridiculous. If you're contributing to a forum, you must expect people to respond to you - even if they don't say what you want to hear.
I never pretend - as you well know. You were talking about God giving instructions to kill unbelievers, and I gave you a verse saying exactly that.
However, you're now saying that only applies to enemies who are non-believers. Ah .... right. But hang on a minute. If God's aim in this verse was to advise Muslims to kill the enemy, and belief wasn't an issue, then there would be no reason for him to mention 'unbelievers' specifically. Regardless of religion, any warring faction attempts to kill its enemy, so it seems the operative word here has to be 'unbelievers' rather than 'enemies'.
(Wonder what the advice is when Muslims kill Muslims? Just a thought).
And what's the point of saying 'why bother?' That's ridiculous. If you're contributing to a forum, you must expect people to respond to you - even if they don't say what you want to hear.
Again, Its you who thought that I was talking about God giving instructions to kill unbelievers. What I said is very clear and read that again if you haven�t done so far. You may not like scrolling up so I will copy it here.
keyplus90
Mon 12/01/09
10:27 Question Author
CJ242 � The part of your post tells me something.
And I agree with you that if any god tells people to kill others only because they do not believe in him then I would not worship that god either.
However now as you are changing your stance that why God did not say enemy then Naomi, please try not to pretend knowing every thing if you do not. You looked at the verse 8:12 only even that not complete. So what I will do I will give you that complete verse and only one next to it, 13.
12. Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."
13. This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger. If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment.
But don�t worry Muslims are well used to of people quoting Quran as much as it suits them.
keyplus90
Mon 12/01/09
10:27 Question Author
CJ242 � The part of your post tells me something.
And I agree with you that if any god tells people to kill others only because they do not believe in him then I would not worship that god either.
However now as you are changing your stance that why God did not say enemy then Naomi, please try not to pretend knowing every thing if you do not. You looked at the verse 8:12 only even that not complete. So what I will do I will give you that complete verse and only one next to it, 13.
12. Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."
13. This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger. If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment.
But don�t worry Muslims are well used to of people quoting Quran as much as it suits them.
Keyplus, I've read it again, and it still appears to say the same as it did the first time. You brought war into the discussion - not me - so I'm not changing stance, I'm addessing your post. If you read what I said again, you will see that I didn't ask why God didn't say 'enemy', I questioned why he specifically stated 'unbelievers'. There's a big difference. And I don't know why you bothered to add more - God's assurance that he will 'give firmness to the believers' simply confirms my point.
I'm familiar with the Koran, and I'm aware of the bit I quoted - and which bits I didn't, so again I'll say, I don't pretend - and you know it.
And Keyplus .... I'm not worried.
I'm familiar with the Koran, and I'm aware of the bit I quoted - and which bits I didn't, so again I'll say, I don't pretend - and you know it.
And Keyplus .... I'm not worried.
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