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The Holy Trinity etc....
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As a Jew, I find the concept of the Trinity confusing. Can anyone enlighten me? I 'kind of' get the God the Father bit. God the son? If Jesus was the Son of God, he wasn't God himself, am I right? But I have NEVER been able to grasp the Holy Spirit bit. Who is this Spirit? where does the belief in him come from, as he's not personified in the Old Testament.?Is he a Christian invention?
Finally. How can a Christian believe in the Holy Trinity AND declare himself a Monotheist? Surely he believes in three Gods, not one?
Finally. How can a Christian believe in the Holy Trinity AND declare himself a Monotheist? Surely he believes in three Gods, not one?
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The Holy Trinity is a Catholic invention not supported by the protestant churches. They also worship Mary, Mother of God in various form. (Odd stains on windows, peculiar shaped loaves of bread or shadows made by a fence post among others. ) They have numerous saints who also seem to be close to the status of Gods.
Philosophical and logical inconsistencies have been part of the Abrahamic traditions from the start. Perhaps as a Jew you should work through the contradictions in the Old Testament before you start poking holes in the faith of others.
I am particluarly interested to hear how you deal with the hypocracy embodied in the Book of Joshua. Just how do you manage to glorify these massacres as evidence of divinity?
It is clear to me that there is very little difference between the Hebrew "Chosen People" and Hitler's "Master Race". The only difference between the Holocaust and Joshua's genocide is that none were left to complain when the Hewbrew's committed this attrocity.
Philosophical and logical inconsistencies have been part of the Abrahamic traditions from the start. Perhaps as a Jew you should work through the contradictions in the Old Testament before you start poking holes in the faith of others.
I am particluarly interested to hear how you deal with the hypocracy embodied in the Book of Joshua. Just how do you manage to glorify these massacres as evidence of divinity?
It is clear to me that there is very little difference between the Hebrew "Chosen People" and Hitler's "Master Race". The only difference between the Holocaust and Joshua's genocide is that none were left to complain when the Hewbrew's committed this attrocity.
Shalom Beso.
Thanks for your reply. Far from 'poking holes', my question was genuinely intended to further my understanding of another faith(!) Jews are actively encouraged to ask questions, and to challenge their own faith, in order to reach an informed and educated understanding of our beliefs and history.
As example of this, we will shortly be celebrating 'Shavuot'. During the eve of Shavuot, it is commanded that we study Torah, and ask questions.
It is certainly true that, during our three and a bit thousand year history, the Children of Israel have carried on in ways less than one would proud to behave in these modern times.
The story of Josuah you mention is actually allegorical, as it turns out. It never happened. But there have been other times when we fought to defend our faith, and even started wars and wiped out enemies. Those were the times we lived in, and we learn to live with that history, as Germans learn to live with the fact of the Holocaust.
Incidentally, Catholics may pray to the Virgin Mary, as you stated, but they believe that they are asking her to intercede between themselves and God. For instance, the line, 'Hail Mary, full of grace, pray for us sinners now, and in the hour of our death' asks only that Mary prays for them, not acts for them.
Incidentally, if it was your intention to insult and offend me by comparing the Jews with the Nazis, then mission accomplished.
But at least we don't have an ex-Nazi as the head of OUR faith, as the Catholics do.........
Thanks for your reply. Far from 'poking holes', my question was genuinely intended to further my understanding of another faith(!) Jews are actively encouraged to ask questions, and to challenge their own faith, in order to reach an informed and educated understanding of our beliefs and history.
As example of this, we will shortly be celebrating 'Shavuot'. During the eve of Shavuot, it is commanded that we study Torah, and ask questions.
It is certainly true that, during our three and a bit thousand year history, the Children of Israel have carried on in ways less than one would proud to behave in these modern times.
The story of Josuah you mention is actually allegorical, as it turns out. It never happened. But there have been other times when we fought to defend our faith, and even started wars and wiped out enemies. Those were the times we lived in, and we learn to live with that history, as Germans learn to live with the fact of the Holocaust.
Incidentally, Catholics may pray to the Virgin Mary, as you stated, but they believe that they are asking her to intercede between themselves and God. For instance, the line, 'Hail Mary, full of grace, pray for us sinners now, and in the hour of our death' asks only that Mary prays for them, not acts for them.
Incidentally, if it was your intention to insult and offend me by comparing the Jews with the Nazis, then mission accomplished.
But at least we don't have an ex-Nazi as the head of OUR faith, as the Catholics do.........
The Bible is supposed to be the word of God. Archeologists (particularly Israelis) struggle to find physical evidence to support it.
Whether the stories of Joshua happened or not it is a disgusting treatise that glorifies a brutal genocide and the enslavement of those who were not murdered.
Many Jews currently use the Bible to support their illegal occupation of Palistinial territories. Apparently this part was not allegorical? How do you choose which bits are real and which are just stories?
The Germans learned to live with their history by accepting it was a deplorable way to behave. The Jews continue to teach the Bible as a guide to life.
It was not my intention to insult or offend anyone by comparing the Hebrews to the Nazis. I was merely pointing out the similarities. You simply took offence rather than face the undeniable ramifications and hypocracy embodied in the Hebrew philosophy.
I find the Bible and the fact it is used to indoctrinate people extremely offensive. It is entirely contrary to any sense of modern morality and it bewilders me that it persists as a venerated text.
Its methodology is still used to this day to justify brutal actions against others in conflicts across the planet.
This begins by villification of those who are in possession of the resourse desired by the perpetrators. A frenzy of hatred is built until a massace is initiated and then the desired goods are appropriated. In the case of the Hebrews they even went on to WORSHIP the stolen gold and silver.
The comparison of the Hewbrews and Nazis is valid. Just explain to me how the "Chosen People" is any different at all from Hitler's Master Race. Tell me how taking the wealth and land of the murdered is any different from what Hitler did.
Hitler and his minions were evil monsters and so were the Hebrews. When the Jews stand up and denounce Joshua for
Whether the stories of Joshua happened or not it is a disgusting treatise that glorifies a brutal genocide and the enslavement of those who were not murdered.
Many Jews currently use the Bible to support their illegal occupation of Palistinial territories. Apparently this part was not allegorical? How do you choose which bits are real and which are just stories?
The Germans learned to live with their history by accepting it was a deplorable way to behave. The Jews continue to teach the Bible as a guide to life.
It was not my intention to insult or offend anyone by comparing the Hebrews to the Nazis. I was merely pointing out the similarities. You simply took offence rather than face the undeniable ramifications and hypocracy embodied in the Hebrew philosophy.
I find the Bible and the fact it is used to indoctrinate people extremely offensive. It is entirely contrary to any sense of modern morality and it bewilders me that it persists as a venerated text.
Its methodology is still used to this day to justify brutal actions against others in conflicts across the planet.
This begins by villification of those who are in possession of the resourse desired by the perpetrators. A frenzy of hatred is built until a massace is initiated and then the desired goods are appropriated. In the case of the Hebrews they even went on to WORSHIP the stolen gold and silver.
The comparison of the Hewbrews and Nazis is valid. Just explain to me how the "Chosen People" is any different at all from Hitler's Master Race. Tell me how taking the wealth and land of the murdered is any different from what Hitler did.
Hitler and his minions were evil monsters and so were the Hebrews. When the Jews stand up and denounce Joshua for
Torahboy:
You felt justified to accuse the Catholics for being led by a former Nazi. Indeed yes, like many other Germans of his vintage he was recruited to the Hitler youth as part of their campaign of indoctrination.
It is somewhat hypocritical for you to object others making similar comparisons of the faith you have been indoctrinated into since birth. I would expect that the Pope has move on but I very much doubt you have seriously questioned a single part of your own faith.
Moreover if you take offence so easily you are not going to enjoy your experiences at online forums. People come to these places to speak their mind. Many of us have been fortunate enough to have been brought up to think outside of religion and have little respect for the biggotry it embodies.
I understand you are here to ask questions as part of your Shavout. We will gladly listen and respond to what you have to say but don't expect us to be mealy-mouthed in our replies.
I would suggest that your Shavout questions might begin inside your own faith where you aught to consider the serious questions I have presented regarding its distasteful philosophy.
You felt justified to accuse the Catholics for being led by a former Nazi. Indeed yes, like many other Germans of his vintage he was recruited to the Hitler youth as part of their campaign of indoctrination.
It is somewhat hypocritical for you to object others making similar comparisons of the faith you have been indoctrinated into since birth. I would expect that the Pope has move on but I very much doubt you have seriously questioned a single part of your own faith.
Moreover if you take offence so easily you are not going to enjoy your experiences at online forums. People come to these places to speak their mind. Many of us have been fortunate enough to have been brought up to think outside of religion and have little respect for the biggotry it embodies.
I understand you are here to ask questions as part of your Shavout. We will gladly listen and respond to what you have to say but don't expect us to be mealy-mouthed in our replies.
I would suggest that your Shavout questions might begin inside your own faith where you aught to consider the serious questions I have presented regarding its distasteful philosophy.
In answer to the original question, the Trinity is a mystery that cannot be explained easily, and does take a certain element of faith to grasp it. Chrisitans believe in One God but that he is revealed to humanity is three ways, the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. When Jesus was on the earth he was God in human form. I like to think that God took a sample of his own DNA (so to speak, dont know if God has DNA, but the essence of himself, all that he was etc) and reproduced a miniture, human version of himself. In that way God became a Father, but he learned also at the same time what it was to be a son. The Son in essence was all that God the Father is, just placed within the limitations of a human body. He did that so that he could experience humanity and overcome the weaknesses in humanity. The Holy Spirit is like the rays that come from the Sun (still a part of the son, and with no less the value of the sun) just allowing the earth to feel the presence of the sun without harming it with its heat and power.
Beso:
Google �big lies.pdf�. A true account of the recent (post 1947) history of the conflict. Find any aspect of this account which cannot be fully supported by historical sources and I�ll be interested to hear it.
The modern state of Israel was established NOT by the Jews, but by the United Nations, through Mandate 101. No land was stolen then by Jews from Arabs. The fledgling nation of Israel had no reason to displace Arabs, in fact the Israeli government begged the Arabs to stay. We had no desire to drive tens of thousands of Arabs from our country. In fact, we desperately needed and desired that they would remain. The Arab states, however, spread the lie of our intention to destroy these people. �Flee!� they said, �The Jews will slaughter you, steal your land, rape your women.....� etc. Once the indigenous Arabs fled, however, the Arab states said �WOAH!..... you can�t flee into OUR countries!� and the so-called Palestinians were left in limbo.
To this very day there are ONLY TWO countries which allow the Palestinian people to settle and claim citizenship. One is Jordan. The other is Israel.
The Arab states have repeatedly refused any real attempt at resolving the issue. It is key for them that the muslim world sees Arabs suffering at the hands of Jews. The non-elected leaders of these countries have absolutely no desire to see the Palestinians settled in a homeland. They want only one thing, the destruction of Israel, the only democracy in the middle east (not counting Egypt, where elections are rigged, Christian parties all but banned, and democracy existing in no real sense of the term).
Returning to the issue of the Bible, and its authenticity. Many Jews no longer believe the Torah to be written by Moses, nor the Tanakh to be literal. However, we still both to be the word of God. In a work of such magnitude, written often in allegorical form, it is very easy to take elements
Google �big lies.pdf�. A true account of the recent (post 1947) history of the conflict. Find any aspect of this account which cannot be fully supported by historical sources and I�ll be interested to hear it.
The modern state of Israel was established NOT by the Jews, but by the United Nations, through Mandate 101. No land was stolen then by Jews from Arabs. The fledgling nation of Israel had no reason to displace Arabs, in fact the Israeli government begged the Arabs to stay. We had no desire to drive tens of thousands of Arabs from our country. In fact, we desperately needed and desired that they would remain. The Arab states, however, spread the lie of our intention to destroy these people. �Flee!� they said, �The Jews will slaughter you, steal your land, rape your women.....� etc. Once the indigenous Arabs fled, however, the Arab states said �WOAH!..... you can�t flee into OUR countries!� and the so-called Palestinians were left in limbo.
To this very day there are ONLY TWO countries which allow the Palestinian people to settle and claim citizenship. One is Jordan. The other is Israel.
The Arab states have repeatedly refused any real attempt at resolving the issue. It is key for them that the muslim world sees Arabs suffering at the hands of Jews. The non-elected leaders of these countries have absolutely no desire to see the Palestinians settled in a homeland. They want only one thing, the destruction of Israel, the only democracy in the middle east (not counting Egypt, where elections are rigged, Christian parties all but banned, and democracy existing in no real sense of the term).
Returning to the issue of the Bible, and its authenticity. Many Jews no longer believe the Torah to be written by Moses, nor the Tanakh to be literal. However, we still both to be the word of God. In a work of such magnitude, written often in allegorical form, it is very easy to take elements
I would freely admit to �oversensitivity� to issues surrounding the Holocaust. Millions were murdered, as the world stood by and watched. Pope Pius XII was fully aware of the events unfolding in Germany before the War, and in Europe during it. He stood by and said NOTHING. His influence in Nazi Germany was minimal, as Germany was largely secular. However, Poland and other staunchly Catholic countries were still largely controlled by the church. He had the blood of countless Jews, and others, on his hands.
Israel was established after a promise by the two faced British government to liberate the Arabs from the Ottoman empire in WWI. Instead they divided the land between themselves and the French while secretly promising parts it to the Zionists to establish Israel. The Arabs felt deeply betrayed and have never trusted the West since.
I don't have a problem with the establishment of Israel but clearly the main reason was to fulfill the Biblical prophecies. Otherwise why would your people want to live in a desert where everyone around hates you?
However illegal Israeli settlements are being built today in areas that are not part of Israel. Those doing so cite that God had given them this land and have no regard for the legal boundaries.
Since your religious philosophy is based on the settlement of the land through massacre of the people already living there it is hardly surprising that the Arabs don't trust you.
Even if the massacres are allegorical you clearly still believe them to be the Word of God. In these stories your God is justifying murder in His name. Just how does this story offer any guidance other than teaching that the rightous way to deal with disagreement is to kill?
Don't misunderstand me. The Christian and Moslem philosophies are built on the same foundation and for milennia they have used violence to settle disputes, always fighting in the name of God.
Until people can move on from philosophy based on the biggotted declarations made by ancient men we cannot hope to find peace. We cannot rely on the words written in their stupid books to guide us to anything other than confilct because this is their very foundation.
I don't have a problem with the establishment of Israel but clearly the main reason was to fulfill the Biblical prophecies. Otherwise why would your people want to live in a desert where everyone around hates you?
However illegal Israeli settlements are being built today in areas that are not part of Israel. Those doing so cite that God had given them this land and have no regard for the legal boundaries.
Since your religious philosophy is based on the settlement of the land through massacre of the people already living there it is hardly surprising that the Arabs don't trust you.
Even if the massacres are allegorical you clearly still believe them to be the Word of God. In these stories your God is justifying murder in His name. Just how does this story offer any guidance other than teaching that the rightous way to deal with disagreement is to kill?
Don't misunderstand me. The Christian and Moslem philosophies are built on the same foundation and for milennia they have used violence to settle disputes, always fighting in the name of God.
Until people can move on from philosophy based on the biggotted declarations made by ancient men we cannot hope to find peace. We cannot rely on the words written in their stupid books to guide us to anything other than confilct because this is their very foundation.
The Holocaust was a deplorable atrocity indeed. But while the believers maintain that Joshua's bl00dy travails (real or imagined) are a glorious manifestation of the define then all criticim of Hitler amounts to double standars and hypocracy. Violence and murder must be rejected wholesale on bouth counts.
I don't know the way forward because I understand the right wing fundamentalist of your country will kill anyone who tries to bring peace through compromise. Yitzhak Rabin paid the price for trying to make peace.
However your own govenment has also held a policy of assassination of those who led its enemies. It has brought nothing but increased extremism. The philosophy of killing expounded by the Bible is deeply flawed.
I don't know the way forward because I understand the right wing fundamentalist of your country will kill anyone who tries to bring peace through compromise. Yitzhak Rabin paid the price for trying to make peace.
However your own govenment has also held a policy of assassination of those who led its enemies. It has brought nothing but increased extremism. The philosophy of killing expounded by the Bible is deeply flawed.
It appears that the philosophy of killing expounded by the Bible isn't the only thing in this discussion that's deeply flawed. That said, the original question overlooks the many references in the Tanakh to Ruach ha Kodesh. In fact He is found first in the second verse of the first chapter of the Bereshlt . .. there are several others (Gen. 6:3, Gen. 41:38, Dan. 4:8, 9, 18, Ex. 31:3, 35:31), totaling nearly 100 references.
The Trinity, while, to some, a difficult concept, is, again, clearly referenced in teh opening of the Bereshlt. "....In the re'shiyth, Elohim created..."
It appears that you are more than thirteen years old and have recited Aliyah at your Bat Mitzvah and would probably know that the noun Elohim is the plural of Elohoah and denotes a plurality. This is repeated in Genesis 1:26, saying "Elohim said, let us make man in our image.
Contd.
The Trinity, while, to some, a difficult concept, is, again, clearly referenced in teh opening of the Bereshlt. "....In the re'shiyth, Elohim created..."
It appears that you are more than thirteen years old and have recited Aliyah at your Bat Mitzvah and would probably know that the noun Elohim is the plural of Elohoah and denotes a plurality. This is repeated in Genesis 1:26, saying "Elohim said, let us make man in our image.
Contd.
Contd.
Additionally, the pre-incarnate Yeshua makes several appearances in the Old Covenant. To me, one of the most striking is Genesis 18: 1-2... Avraham states (vs. 1) that Adonay (distinctly singular) appeared to him at Mamre... but vs. 2 says when he looked up he saw three 'enowsh (men, human in form). Yet Avraham prostrated himself infront of them in worship, and addressed them as 'Adonay... which I'm sure you know as the name used in place of the unspeakable YHWH... there are many other such references... (read, especially, the reference to Melchizedek...)
The Trinity is beleved, at least by Protestant denominations to be one God in three personalities. Remember the S'hema refernces One God but the reference is Hear O' Yisrael, the YHWH is our Elohim is one YHWH...." Intersting question, thanks for asking...
By the way, archaeology is replete with support of the historocity of the Old and New Covenant... to many to reference here, but supplied at your request...
Additionally, the pre-incarnate Yeshua makes several appearances in the Old Covenant. To me, one of the most striking is Genesis 18: 1-2... Avraham states (vs. 1) that Adonay (distinctly singular) appeared to him at Mamre... but vs. 2 says when he looked up he saw three 'enowsh (men, human in form). Yet Avraham prostrated himself infront of them in worship, and addressed them as 'Adonay... which I'm sure you know as the name used in place of the unspeakable YHWH... there are many other such references... (read, especially, the reference to Melchizedek...)
The Trinity is beleved, at least by Protestant denominations to be one God in three personalities. Remember the S'hema refernces One God but the reference is Hear O' Yisrael, the YHWH is our Elohim is one YHWH...." Intersting question, thanks for asking...
By the way, archaeology is replete with support of the historocity of the Old and New Covenant... to many to reference here, but supplied at your request...
Clanad:
Shalom. Finally, a considered and researched response(!)
Thank you.
The reference in ******** is one oftentimes quoted by those attempting to confuse a plurality of God (as a multi faceted being) with a multiplicity of Gods. Traditional interpretation of this line in the Talmud (don't have mine to hand, sorry, so can't give you the tractate) often ascribes this line to God's conversing with the Angels. A somewhat clumsy and all-too-convienient explanation. Surely the line then would read, 'And God said unto the Angels, let Us create....' etc.
Whilst I can freely accept, and am indeed expected to acknowledge, the plurality of God, I don't see that this is the intention in Christian portrayal of the Holy Trinity.
Please also see my question on the first commandment. I have asked this one of my own Rabbi, but you know how Rabbis are..... never an answer, only another question (!)
Shalom. Finally, a considered and researched response(!)
Thank you.
The reference in ******** is one oftentimes quoted by those attempting to confuse a plurality of God (as a multi faceted being) with a multiplicity of Gods. Traditional interpretation of this line in the Talmud (don't have mine to hand, sorry, so can't give you the tractate) often ascribes this line to God's conversing with the Angels. A somewhat clumsy and all-too-convienient explanation. Surely the line then would read, 'And God said unto the Angels, let Us create....' etc.
Whilst I can freely accept, and am indeed expected to acknowledge, the plurality of God, I don't see that this is the intention in Christian portrayal of the Holy Trinity.
Please also see my question on the first commandment. I have asked this one of my own Rabbi, but you know how Rabbis are..... never an answer, only another question (!)
Why bother asking anything here, Torahboy? You and your rabbi have obviously enought faith in your stupid books and nothing we say will waver your beliefs.
Moreover if you come here expecting to convert thinking people to your disgusting beliefs then you are wasting your time. You wouldn't know what a thought is because you have been indoctrinated from birth.
Moreover if you come here expecting to convert thinking people to your disgusting beliefs then you are wasting your time. You wouldn't know what a thought is because you have been indoctrinated from birth.
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