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ok bare with me I don't even know if this makes sense....
Key plus always argues that islam is more 'correct' than Christianity-as in less flaws and loopholes...
And I also think Islam is younger than Christianity?
well does it follow then that the most complete religion should be scientology........does it follow that the younger the religion the more 'correct' they are?
Just the ramblings of a mad man bored whilst eating my Branflakes this morning!!!
Key plus always argues that islam is more 'correct' than Christianity-as in less flaws and loopholes...
And I also think Islam is younger than Christianity?
well does it follow then that the most complete religion should be scientology........does it follow that the younger the religion the more 'correct' they are?
Just the ramblings of a mad man bored whilst eating my Branflakes this morning!!!
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That was your question Naomi- To keep it simple I can just ask you the same question that what right do you have to worry about how someone dresses up. I know if I say that majority of these women do that only because that is the way they like it then you will not understand.
First of all beauty not always means showing your body parts. You can cover yourself and still look beautiful.
You are a woman so tell me why woman shows her beauty? There might be other reasons but I believe the most strongest reason is to attract some attention (usually of the opposite sex). Why would you like to attract attention? What do you want to achieve out of that? Agree or not but in a society where men will not lower their gaze and women will not cover themselves then adultery and most importantly rape will increase. Islam is against both of these as behind the destruction of social values are usually these two reasons.
However if you do not agree with this all then just answer my questions.
Personally would you take your clothes off (partly or completely) in public? If you say yes then what would be the reason to do that?
First of all beauty not always means showing your body parts. You can cover yourself and still look beautiful.
You are a woman so tell me why woman shows her beauty? There might be other reasons but I believe the most strongest reason is to attract some attention (usually of the opposite sex). Why would you like to attract attention? What do you want to achieve out of that? Agree or not but in a society where men will not lower their gaze and women will not cover themselves then adultery and most importantly rape will increase. Islam is against both of these as behind the destruction of social values are usually these two reasons.
However if you do not agree with this all then just answer my questions.
Personally would you take your clothes off (partly or completely) in public? If you say yes then what would be the reason to do that?
Keyplus, Unlike you, I recognise women as human beings in their own right and I advocate their freedom to choose - which is what you are denying them. Clearly Muslim men don't trust their women and, more importantly, they don't trust themselves. How on earth do you think the majority of the rest of the women in the world manage to escape the clutches of evil men without the protection of the burka? The woman in that picture is with her husband and family, so who's going to attack her, and how is she going to have the opportunity to commit adultery? It's nonsense. It's fine for the men to wear comfortable and appropriate clothing to swim, so why not her? Does the sight of naked female hand drive men wild with animal passion? I don't think so.
Your attitude to western dress, the reasons it's worn, and the effect it has on the populace, is an insult. Muslim men, it seems, are obsessed with sex, and assume everyone around them is a sexual predator - and they're not. I've never been attacked because of the way I dress - and neither has it lead to me running off with another man (well, not more than once a week anyway!). The Koran says the face and hands may remain uncovered, so there is no religious reason to compel any woman to dress like the woman in that picture. It's done simply on the dictate of insecure and domineering men. You're more than happy for women to spend their lives shut off from the rest of humanity, but I've no doubt that you would hate spend your life in such a fashion. Quite simply, in your world, women are the lesser beings and as such, they do as they're told.
Your attitude to western dress, the reasons it's worn, and the effect it has on the populace, is an insult. Muslim men, it seems, are obsessed with sex, and assume everyone around them is a sexual predator - and they're not. I've never been attacked because of the way I dress - and neither has it lead to me running off with another man (well, not more than once a week anyway!). The Koran says the face and hands may remain uncovered, so there is no religious reason to compel any woman to dress like the woman in that picture. It's done simply on the dictate of insecure and domineering men. You're more than happy for women to spend their lives shut off from the rest of humanity, but I've no doubt that you would hate spend your life in such a fashion. Quite simply, in your world, women are the lesser beings and as such, they do as they're told.
Waldo, Men aren't obliged to cover up because they made the rules. Although women are forbidden to look at men ('Say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty.........' [Quran : 24.31]), I think that ruling comes not from the assumption that a woman might be human enough to be tempted by a man, but from the view that they are personal possessions, and as such, something to be guarded lest other men steal them.
Naomi – The verse you quoted( 24:31) I had already quoted (see previous page). The only thing you have done is ignored the verse before that (24:30) where same has been said to men before saying to women. Perhaps that is just an oversight on your behalf.
Naomi – where I agree with you that women do not have to cover their hands, face and feet but if I could repeat your own words here,
/////Keyplus, Unlike you, I recognise women as human beings in their own right and I advocate their freedom to choose -/////
I have never neither forced my wife nor my daughter and they have started wearing hijab (head cover 100% by their own choice). To all of your other words, I think you just google and let me know what are the countries or I should say societies where there are more extra marital affairs and rapes?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics
Your words about Adam and Eve I can only say that it might be Christian (Bible) story you have mentioned. Quran does say that after doing what they were not supposed to do (for punishment) they appeared naked to each other (no one else was there) and they covered themselves with leaves. So still they decided to cover up.
Waldo – There is a common saying that men think about sex every 2nd second. For men naturally it does not take too much to think about sex. Where women’s thinking about sex is different or is not as swift as men. But to your question about that why Islam does not ask men to cover, so the verses I quoted clearly says to men too that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty. Muslim men too have limitations.
Naomi – where I agree with you that women do not have to cover their hands, face and feet but if I could repeat your own words here,
/////Keyplus, Unlike you, I recognise women as human beings in their own right and I advocate their freedom to choose -/////
I have never neither forced my wife nor my daughter and they have started wearing hijab (head cover 100% by their own choice). To all of your other words, I think you just google and let me know what are the countries or I should say societies where there are more extra marital affairs and rapes?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics
Your words about Adam and Eve I can only say that it might be Christian (Bible) story you have mentioned. Quran does say that after doing what they were not supposed to do (for punishment) they appeared naked to each other (no one else was there) and they covered themselves with leaves. So still they decided to cover up.
Waldo – There is a common saying that men think about sex every 2nd second. For men naturally it does not take too much to think about sex. Where women’s thinking about sex is different or is not as swift as men. But to your question about that why Islam does not ask men to cover, so the verses I quoted clearly says to men too that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty. Muslim men too have limitations.
Islam decrees the law. There can be no alternative. Such a limitation to human potential!
Moreover, the repressed ultra-modesty breeds disfunctional thought. This extreme is expressed in the concept that a man cannot look upon a woman without lust in his heart while the woman must make the sacrifice for his inadequacies of character. This is a primitive model of morality relying on the repression of animal desires.
"I cannot rape that woman for Allah/God/Yhwe/Jehova/{insert your deity here} will punsih me when I die." (And if I am faithful I shall be rewarded with a hoard of virgins.) This is a psychosis.
Modern values teach that we should not look upon a woman as a sex object. Rather than objectifying the difference between us, modern men and women treat each other as colleagues in a rich social environment. It isn't about sex because there are so many facets to the wider meaning of being in a relationship with another person.
Theistic beliefs all fail to come to terms with sexuality. They succeed in part because the pathology generated by the wreched beliefs provide a foundation for manipulation. We are sinners because we lusted for the flesh and you can count on finding everyone guilty, especially with a bit of Abraham's (pubh's) wisdom to get you into a frenzy of rightousness.
Religion is stone-age pnilosophy. It has no place in the development of modern global society.
Moreover, the repressed ultra-modesty breeds disfunctional thought. This extreme is expressed in the concept that a man cannot look upon a woman without lust in his heart while the woman must make the sacrifice for his inadequacies of character. This is a primitive model of morality relying on the repression of animal desires.
"I cannot rape that woman for Allah/God/Yhwe/Jehova/{insert your deity here} will punsih me when I die." (And if I am faithful I shall be rewarded with a hoard of virgins.) This is a psychosis.
Modern values teach that we should not look upon a woman as a sex object. Rather than objectifying the difference between us, modern men and women treat each other as colleagues in a rich social environment. It isn't about sex because there are so many facets to the wider meaning of being in a relationship with another person.
Theistic beliefs all fail to come to terms with sexuality. They succeed in part because the pathology generated by the wreched beliefs provide a foundation for manipulation. We are sinners because we lusted for the flesh and you can count on finding everyone guilty, especially with a bit of Abraham's (pubh's) wisdom to get you into a frenzy of rightousness.
Religion is stone-age pnilosophy. It has no place in the development of modern global society.
Keyplus, Yes, you had already posted that. It was an oversight. However, God's attitude to nakedness is not only mentioned in the bible. The Koran says that Adam & Eve were stripped of their nakedness by Satan, so nudity was clearly acceptable to God.
You seem to have an obsession with rape, but you've actually proven my point by posting that link because it clearly shows that the statistics in Oman, population 99% Muslim, are higher than those in Portugal, Italy, Japan, and several other places.
You say you have never forced your wife and daughter to wear the hijab, but your attitude if they didn't would be anyone's guess. Your defence of the outlandish costume worn by that poor women in the picture says it all. As I said before, it isn't the west that is obsessed with sex - it's Islam.
You seem to have an obsession with rape, but you've actually proven my point by posting that link because it clearly shows that the statistics in Oman, population 99% Muslim, are higher than those in Portugal, Italy, Japan, and several other places.
You say you have never forced your wife and daughter to wear the hijab, but your attitude if they didn't would be anyone's guess. Your defence of the outlandish costume worn by that poor women in the picture says it all. As I said before, it isn't the west that is obsessed with sex - it's Islam.
Unless anyone should think this ia a thread against Islam we must remember that the tenants of all theistic religions assign limited rights to women.
Only during the twentieth century (and some surprisingly late) did the Christian western women receive voting rights and only very recently, laws that give women the same rights as a man.The Christian churches were part of the resistance to this change in our sense of morality.
Religion is the problem, particularly the Abrahamic Trinity. Blind adherance to violent repressive simplistic principles without a sophisticated contextual understanding is a receipe for philosophical mayhem. This reality is reflected in the news every day. Religion is not our slavation but our undoing.
Only during the twentieth century (and some surprisingly late) did the Christian western women receive voting rights and only very recently, laws that give women the same rights as a man.The Christian churches were part of the resistance to this change in our sense of morality.
Religion is the problem, particularly the Abrahamic Trinity. Blind adherance to violent repressive simplistic principles without a sophisticated contextual understanding is a receipe for philosophical mayhem. This reality is reflected in the news every day. Religion is not our slavation but our undoing.
It may well be commonly held that men think about sex every two seconds, Keyplus, but it's also a myth.
"MEN THINK ABOUT SEX EVERY SEVEN SECONDS
"It has become an accepted truth that men think about sex a lot. Depending on which version you've heard, it could be every few minutes or every seven seconds. On the face of it, this is simply ludicrous.
"If we assume that the average male is awake for 16 hours a day, each man would have to think about sex more than 8,000 times a day. That's about as many times as a person breathes while awake.
"The most comprehensive survey ever completed on sexuality, The Social Organisation of Sexuality: Sexual Practices in the United States found that 54 per cent of men reported thinking about sex every day or several times a day, 43 per cent a few times a month or a few times a week, and four per cent less than once a month.
"When asked the same question: 19 per cent of women reported thinking about sex every day or several times a day, 67 per cent a few times a month or a few times a week, and 14 per cent less than once a month.
"Women do think about sex less than men, but the difference is not as great as men think."
http://www.dailymail....ve.html#ixzz0ZrnKCa7H
Now you've made me read the Daily Hate, and I feel dirty.
"MEN THINK ABOUT SEX EVERY SEVEN SECONDS
"It has become an accepted truth that men think about sex a lot. Depending on which version you've heard, it could be every few minutes or every seven seconds. On the face of it, this is simply ludicrous.
"If we assume that the average male is awake for 16 hours a day, each man would have to think about sex more than 8,000 times a day. That's about as many times as a person breathes while awake.
"The most comprehensive survey ever completed on sexuality, The Social Organisation of Sexuality: Sexual Practices in the United States found that 54 per cent of men reported thinking about sex every day or several times a day, 43 per cent a few times a month or a few times a week, and four per cent less than once a month.
"When asked the same question: 19 per cent of women reported thinking about sex every day or several times a day, 67 per cent a few times a month or a few times a week, and 14 per cent less than once a month.
"Women do think about sex less than men, but the difference is not as great as men think."
http://www.dailymail....ve.html#ixzz0ZrnKCa7H
Now you've made me read the Daily Hate, and I feel dirty.
-- answer removed --
Keyplus's link to the rape statistics also mentions that the reality may be quite different due, among others, to influence in the level of reporting.
I would expect rape to be extremely under reported in societies where the woman is blamed, often punished and sometimes killed by her family for her infidelity. She can only prove rape with four male witnesses. From experiences in Australia the four outher Muslims are more likely to join in and then telll each other the woman was at fault.
In some Islamic cultures a woman who is not under the immediate protection of a man will be raped to reinforce that she must comply with Islamic Law. Rapes might well be discouraged by avoiding being unaccompanied or just never going out but at great cost to the liberty of the woman. A vulnerable position in a man's domain.
Rape in the home would be be ignored in societies where the man has the right to engage in sex with his wife without regard for her wishes. Many women would simply accept this and not complain because it would be futile anyway.
Islam has absolutely nothing to offer modern philosophical and moral development.
I would expect rape to be extremely under reported in societies where the woman is blamed, often punished and sometimes killed by her family for her infidelity. She can only prove rape with four male witnesses. From experiences in Australia the four outher Muslims are more likely to join in and then telll each other the woman was at fault.
In some Islamic cultures a woman who is not under the immediate protection of a man will be raped to reinforce that she must comply with Islamic Law. Rapes might well be discouraged by avoiding being unaccompanied or just never going out but at great cost to the liberty of the woman. A vulnerable position in a man's domain.
Rape in the home would be be ignored in societies where the man has the right to engage in sex with his wife without regard for her wishes. Many women would simply accept this and not complain because it would be futile anyway.
Islam has absolutely nothing to offer modern philosophical and moral development.
Even if Muslim women can overcome the prejudice and risk to their life by accusing a man of rape and the incidence of rape is genuinely low in your Islamic wonderland it would be because women are inaccessible through being shut out and denied personal freedom.
Also remember that I do not only accuse the Muslim faith but the whole theistic class of religion. These philosophies invariably tend toward totalitarian control and take society down dead end paths without a means of moderation that might allow for alternatives to be explored. Extremism is inherent in the philosophy.
Core beliefs are only changed by revolution or division as we have seen repeatedly in the history of these fascist faiths. Moderation only happens when believers ignore selected passages but this always leaves it vulnerable fundamentalist zealouts because what is written in the holy manuals is uttlerly inappropriate in modern society. These beliefs lie at the centre of the problems on the planet.
All we have to learn from theism is how damaged we can be by religious belief.
Also remember that I do not only accuse the Muslim faith but the whole theistic class of religion. These philosophies invariably tend toward totalitarian control and take society down dead end paths without a means of moderation that might allow for alternatives to be explored. Extremism is inherent in the philosophy.
Core beliefs are only changed by revolution or division as we have seen repeatedly in the history of these fascist faiths. Moderation only happens when believers ignore selected passages but this always leaves it vulnerable fundamentalist zealouts because what is written in the holy manuals is uttlerly inappropriate in modern society. These beliefs lie at the centre of the problems on the planet.
All we have to learn from theism is how damaged we can be by religious belief.
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