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Taking a lead from another question here where flobadob asked atheists that how did they become atheists, I want to ask a bit different question.
I read somewhere,
"It is better to believe in God, hell, life after death and then find out that these things did not exist than not believing in these and then all of a sudden finding that it was true"
Although I have no doubt in my mind and my belief is not due to that reason, but to put this question forward let's take it HYPOTHETICALLY. I am having a good life (in this world) and can't think of a thing that my belief in God and so on has stopped me from doing where I would really regret later on or would have hoped of having done that. Still when it comes to hereafter I have a hope that I will have something better there too. However suppose if that does not happen, I would still have no regrets as worse come worse I would be as anyone else who did not believe, which is nothing after this world.
However what hope do you have if all what you ever denied turns out to be true?
I read somewhere,
"It is better to believe in God, hell, life after death and then find out that these things did not exist than not believing in these and then all of a sudden finding that it was true"
Although I have no doubt in my mind and my belief is not due to that reason, but to put this question forward let's take it HYPOTHETICALLY. I am having a good life (in this world) and can't think of a thing that my belief in God and so on has stopped me from doing where I would really regret later on or would have hoped of having done that. Still when it comes to hereafter I have a hope that I will have something better there too. However suppose if that does not happen, I would still have no regrets as worse come worse I would be as anyone else who did not believe, which is nothing after this world.
However what hope do you have if all what you ever denied turns out to be true?
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I do not need religion. Religion needs me.
Without me (and everyone else of course) there would be no religion.
Religion is a male construct to keep other men but mostly women in their place. Servitude, slavery, demeaned and religated to second and third class. Given the chance religion would take away everyones voice and subdugate the nation and the earth simply to keep some in power and some in servitude.
Without me (and everyone else of course) there would be no religion.
Religion is a male construct to keep other men but mostly women in their place. Servitude, slavery, demeaned and religated to second and third class. Given the chance religion would take away everyones voice and subdugate the nation and the earth simply to keep some in power and some in servitude.
I'm not sure if I'm an atheist i don't disbelieve in god i just have never found a religion that i believe in totally,i never regret things as i do what i want at the time i do it and if when i pass away there is a god then so be it what has he ever done for me apart from make my life a living h@ll so to be dead and find out he is there somewhere i will be able to ask him directly !!!!
Naomi is right Keyplus - this is Pascals wager and it was quite clever 350 years ago but not so smart today.
Perhaps there is a God - just not your one - perhaps he will send me to heaven for not worshiping false idols and send you to Hell for worshiping the wrong God.
That would be a bit of a problem for Pascals wager wouldn't it?
It is a classic "False dichotomy" ( what appears to be 2 choices is in fact not 2 but many )
These ideas of Good and Evil - where do they come from? - they are mostly cultural - look at the age of consent?!
Is that too easy? Killing people - the old testament is full of directions to put whole nations to the sword - today we would call it ethnic cleansing.
Homosexuality - I'm sure you think that is evil - I'm equally sure many here would disagree!
The idea of absolute good and evil are illusions caused by an inability to accept or look at other cultures
Perhaps there is a God - just not your one - perhaps he will send me to heaven for not worshiping false idols and send you to Hell for worshiping the wrong God.
That would be a bit of a problem for Pascals wager wouldn't it?
It is a classic "False dichotomy" ( what appears to be 2 choices is in fact not 2 but many )
These ideas of Good and Evil - where do they come from? - they are mostly cultural - look at the age of consent?!
Is that too easy? Killing people - the old testament is full of directions to put whole nations to the sword - today we would call it ethnic cleansing.
Homosexuality - I'm sure you think that is evil - I'm equally sure many here would disagree!
The idea of absolute good and evil are illusions caused by an inability to accept or look at other cultures
Tamborine-
1- No my god does not tell me to kill infidels.
2- My God does tell that adulterer (only married and if proved guilty using given criterion) be killed but not by me, through legal system. As adultery brings so many, physical, social, and emotional diseases as well as problems into society. And law applies to me too and not only to women.
3- My God does not say that I have to kill my daughter for this reason too.
4- Forget about harming other people, In fact my God tells me that he will forgive any sins but not the sins committed against other innocent human.
In fact my God does not ask me to do even a single thing which goes against humanity.
Naomi – That question about condom you better ask a Christian. Only thing I can think of is that perhaps condom gives people a reason to have extra marital sex (adultery) so may be that is the reason they are against that. Islam is not against the condom but of course against the adultery. And your remarks (yet once again) about how Islam treats women shows that you do not know exactly how Islam does ask women to be treated. In that regard you could not give me suitable or sensible answer when I asked that why there were more women (in West) converting to Islam.
1- No my god does not tell me to kill infidels.
2- My God does tell that adulterer (only married and if proved guilty using given criterion) be killed but not by me, through legal system. As adultery brings so many, physical, social, and emotional diseases as well as problems into society. And law applies to me too and not only to women.
3- My God does not say that I have to kill my daughter for this reason too.
4- Forget about harming other people, In fact my God tells me that he will forgive any sins but not the sins committed against other innocent human.
In fact my God does not ask me to do even a single thing which goes against humanity.
Naomi – That question about condom you better ask a Christian. Only thing I can think of is that perhaps condom gives people a reason to have extra marital sex (adultery) so may be that is the reason they are against that. Islam is not against the condom but of course against the adultery. And your remarks (yet once again) about how Islam treats women shows that you do not know exactly how Islam does ask women to be treated. In that regard you could not give me suitable or sensible answer when I asked that why there were more women (in West) converting to Islam.
Jake- It was pascal or whoever I am not really interested in that and had I been I would have googled about that. I believe the words made sense then and still do now.
In response to what you said about homosexuality, all I can say that you are a knowledgeable person so why no just google one more thing. “Health risks of homosexuality”.
In the end all of you are talking about the book which tells you to do good things. Perhaps you have not read a book but people you heard that from did. And all these things (like it or not) are from religious books. But the problem is that few people would put things (that does not suit) them in religions account and things they like are usually self learnt. Otherwise I have never read “Love thy neighbour” in a book of physics, chemistry, biology or even in the history.
In response to what you said about homosexuality, all I can say that you are a knowledgeable person so why no just google one more thing. “Health risks of homosexuality”.
In the end all of you are talking about the book which tells you to do good things. Perhaps you have not read a book but people you heard that from did. And all these things (like it or not) are from religious books. But the problem is that few people would put things (that does not suit) them in religions account and things they like are usually self learnt. Otherwise I have never read “Love thy neighbour” in a book of physics, chemistry, biology or even in the history.
Tamborine – You caught me just as I was about to call it a day and go into dreamland. I am sure you know about Jihad as much as most of the people know. I mean killing people. Whereas I would say that this is again misconception. Jihad has nine stages and the last stage is known as “Qitaal” in Arabic and that is what most of the people believe as jihad. To answer your this question I could have easily asked you a simple question. “What do you think about Britain standing up against invading German’s in WW2?” According to Islam that was Jihad too as people decided to fight an invading army to protect their lives and that of their loved ones, and their country. According to Muhammad (pbuh) the best Jihad is speaking the truth in front of a unjust ruler (dictator) when you are sure that he would not like that. You imagine someone like that ruling over you and every one keep quiet, what would be the future of your generations to come? You see someone weaker being harassed, or kicked around by someone in the street. Would you walk away or try helping him? According to Islam even helping that person is Jihad too.
As for adultery, I did not say that it was only western thing. Perhaps you are right about saying about many reasons to go that road but does that give the solution to that reason or does that create even more? What reason can you give me for that? I am really keen to know. In the end night, night and have sweet dreams.
As for adultery, I did not say that it was only western thing. Perhaps you are right about saying about many reasons to go that road but does that give the solution to that reason or does that create even more? What reason can you give me for that? I am really keen to know. In the end night, night and have sweet dreams.
The answer is none whatsoever; I would be subject to whatever judgement the deity that turned out to exist decreed.
That doesn't mean the question has any great value, however. It provides no guide as to which deity to believe in, nor does it take account of the fact that the factors in favour of belief may be considerably outweighed by those against.
That doesn't mean the question has any great value, however. It provides no guide as to which deity to believe in, nor does it take account of the fact that the factors in favour of belief may be considerably outweighed by those against.
Keyplus. I am an adulter, so is my wife and both of our ex-partners. Outside our marriage our ex partners are our very closest friends. We all brought up the children as an extended family and know we can count on any of us to look out for those kids as long as possible.
We had all been living in relationships that were not working. Since the change we all have lives as we would like and our choices are proven to be good for the children since they are now young adults with good relationships and have voiced their appreciation for the way they have been treated.
In your system we should all have been killed for infidel-ity. Islam sets one value on complex issues and enforces it on all. They may even have been advanced values compared to other in their day they now stiffle moral progress.
We had all been living in relationships that were not working. Since the change we all have lives as we would like and our choices are proven to be good for the children since they are now young adults with good relationships and have voiced their appreciation for the way they have been treated.
In your system we should all have been killed for infidel-ity. Islam sets one value on complex issues and enforces it on all. They may even have been advanced values compared to other in their day they now stiffle moral progress.
tamborine, speaking from experience of Keyplus' previous posts, don't be too sure about what he believes and supports.
Keyplus, //That question about condom you better ask a Christian.// Did you read my post? I didn't realise this question was just about Islam and I clearly referred to the church. And we've discussed Islam's attitude to women ad infinitum so we won't go there again. Of course you don't agree with me, because what I say doesn't suit your agenda - but to anyone who isn't going to any lengths - even if it means supporting the demonstrably inaccurate - to promote an archaic philosophy my answers are sensible and suitable.
cont...
Keyplus, //That question about condom you better ask a Christian.// Did you read my post? I didn't realise this question was just about Islam and I clearly referred to the church. And we've discussed Islam's attitude to women ad infinitum so we won't go there again. Of course you don't agree with me, because what I say doesn't suit your agenda - but to anyone who isn't going to any lengths - even if it means supporting the demonstrably inaccurate - to promote an archaic philosophy my answers are sensible and suitable.
cont...
...cont
You seem to think you can't live a respectable life without guidance from other men. Why? You are not a child, and they have the same information available as you have, so what do they know that you don't know? Be they potty priests or mad mullahs, by listening to them their flocks give them permission to dictate the way that everyone else must live their lives. It's utter madness to expect people to deny their innate sexuality - why should they - so when there's a chance of infection, or of babies being born infected, why should people not use condoms - and why must women be content to live their lives shrouded in servitude and ridiculous attire, or married to people they don't choose if they don't want to? And if people want to have sex outside marriage, or commit so-called adultery, what gives you - or anyone else - the right to say they can't? People's lives are their own to do with as they will. The truth is you and all followers allow others to rule you, and in so doing you voluntarily surrender your own intellect - and all because you are terrified of something that comes to us all - death.
jno, according to Keyplus, a suspended sentence is definitely on the cards for all of us. He's already told us that his God is going to hang non-believers upside down - and how he will laugh when it happens.
You seem to think you can't live a respectable life without guidance from other men. Why? You are not a child, and they have the same information available as you have, so what do they know that you don't know? Be they potty priests or mad mullahs, by listening to them their flocks give them permission to dictate the way that everyone else must live their lives. It's utter madness to expect people to deny their innate sexuality - why should they - so when there's a chance of infection, or of babies being born infected, why should people not use condoms - and why must women be content to live their lives shrouded in servitude and ridiculous attire, or married to people they don't choose if they don't want to? And if people want to have sex outside marriage, or commit so-called adultery, what gives you - or anyone else - the right to say they can't? People's lives are their own to do with as they will. The truth is you and all followers allow others to rule you, and in so doing you voluntarily surrender your own intellect - and all because you are terrified of something that comes to us all - death.
jno, according to Keyplus, a suspended sentence is definitely on the cards for all of us. He's already told us that his God is going to hang non-believers upside down - and how he will laugh when it happens.
As I hope veterans of this site will agree, I am all for sensible debate, or even light-hearted debate occasionally. And I certainly believe that all opinions should be heard, however potty.
What I don't understand is why the more intelligent among you bother to engage with keyplus, whose mind is plainly closed behind thick doors of prejudicde, fastened with the unpickable lock of religious fanaticism. What do you hope to gain?
What I don't understand is why the more intelligent among you bother to engage with keyplus, whose mind is plainly closed behind thick doors of prejudicde, fastened with the unpickable lock of religious fanaticism. What do you hope to gain?
The problem with some religious people, keyplus included, is that they think that belief in something can be switched on and off on a whim.
This is because what they believe in (God, etc.), has no evidence of existance in the first place, so no new evidence will ever come to light for them to prove or disprove their belief.
They CHOOSE (or are brainwashed by other people who chose) to believe in a totally unproven abstract concept and, tomorrow, if they wish, they could choose not to believe in it and would acutally look a bit cleverer for it. Atheists on the other hand do not chose to disbelieve, they disbelieve based on the external factor of lack of proof.
I don't believe in a God becasue I have seen no evidence of it in my life, and if, when I die, I am put in front of God (why a God would choose to only reveal itself after I die I have absolutely no idea but I am reluctantly indulging the believers here) then I am certain that an entity that could create a universe would be rational enough to know why I didn't believe and would actually be quite proud of me.
This is because what they believe in (God, etc.), has no evidence of existance in the first place, so no new evidence will ever come to light for them to prove or disprove their belief.
They CHOOSE (or are brainwashed by other people who chose) to believe in a totally unproven abstract concept and, tomorrow, if they wish, they could choose not to believe in it and would acutally look a bit cleverer for it. Atheists on the other hand do not chose to disbelieve, they disbelieve based on the external factor of lack of proof.
I don't believe in a God becasue I have seen no evidence of it in my life, and if, when I die, I am put in front of God (why a God would choose to only reveal itself after I die I have absolutely no idea but I am reluctantly indulging the believers here) then I am certain that an entity that could create a universe would be rational enough to know why I didn't believe and would actually be quite proud of me.
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