Mainly Only Atheists need to answer, but others may join in too,

[keyplus90]

Taking a lead from another question here where flobadob asked atheists that how did they become atheists, I want to ask a bit different question.

I read somewhere,

"It is better to believe in God, hell, life after death and then find out that these things did not exist than not believing in these and then all of a sudden finding that it was true"

Although I have no doubt in my mind and my belief is not due to that reason, but to put this question forward let's take it HYPOTHETICALLY. I am having a good life (in this world) and can't think of a thing that my belief in God and so on has stopped me from doing where I would really regret later on or would have hoped of having done that. Still when it comes to hereafter I have a hope that I will have something better there too. However suppose if that does not happen, I would still have no regrets as worse come worse I would be as anyone else who did not believe, which is nothing after this world.

However what hope do you have if all what you ever denied turns out to be true?

[eltelioni]

You think logic is going to help you? This is a God who tells us the universe is 6000 years old then plants evidence of a much longer history to "challenge your faith". What a devious and untrustworthy God he is.

[beso]

I haven't the slightest illusion that I could overcome a lifetime of indoctrination and convince Keyplus to change his faith. As Naomi so beautiful elucidated, facts do not influence faith because fact is not a part of the faith equasion. The faithful who try but cannot reconcile facts simly back away from the debate. We saw this recently in another lively thread from this topic.

As I suspect do others, I write to a larger audience and in doing so improve my ability to articulate the argment, making facts more comprehensible to those willing to listen.

Unfortunately there is no hope for those whose minds resembling a damaged recording that repeatedly jumps to the same point in the song. However there is hope for others who are wavering in their faith because they were not subjected to the docctine from before they were old enough to develop the tools of critical analysis. They will be afforded an opportunity to avoid plummetting into the abyss of ignorance and bigotry that is religion.

I have no doubt that Islam would judge me in need of conversion by the sword for trying to lead others from the faith. However this reveals a deeper but ironic truth. Undoubtedly, when a religion bans all criticism we fairly conclude that it doesn't even deserve the status of a faith. Few things show so little faith as the need to supress opposition.

[naomi24]

eltelioni, logic is imperative to me, but sadly not to others. If it were, religion would be no more.

[keyplus90]

At least one person has stood up to his belief and has answered the question. Yes Waldo. As for second part of his post that which deity to believe in. If anyone has to believe in a God (suppose) then it has to be only one
God who has power to punish or forgive without consulting another partner. Otherwise it just does not make sense as I said that two people can’t even run a team.

Waldo – then of course as JNO said that if that God wants then he may give you suspended sentence, but I would say he may forgive you all together as it has nothing to do with me.

Beso – in your story only one word if I had to replace would be Wife/husband instead of partner. Still if you have bad relation you have choice of divorce, marry another one and still together you can look after kids. So why not commit yourself? Perhaps that is the main reason why most of the relations don’t last long because you don’t show commitment in the first place do you? Its all about test drive and if like it then may marry later on otherwise carry on test driving this or go onto another one.

[keyplus90]

Naomi – This question is not only about Islam but your question was to do with Christianity. I will repeat my words again that Islam has no problem with condom but Islam do have problem with abuse of condom. Islam does not say women should not have a choice in choosing who she can marry, what you said about adultery in your post I can only ask you a question. Would you like your husband to have sex with someone else behind your back? Simple YES or NO would do. For your learning from others, I can only say what I have said so many time before. You are the only one who never learnt anything from someone else and have all your own theories and facts.

Chakka – Surely you can’t do what you are asking others to do. For someone so intelligent like you I can only say one thing. If you think you are so intelligent then do something which world should know why you are just a pixel like others. Write a book on humanity and I alone will by one million copies.

[keyplus90]

II-billym – I can tell you so many other things apart from God where you would not be able to give others any proof of. You can’t believe in God because you can’t see any evidence or perhaps someone else would say that you can’t believe in God as you did not believe in evidences around you and were instead looking too far. Bring your finger very close to your eye and you would not be able to see that too.

Eltelioni – God did not say that universe is 6000 years old. It’s the author of the Bible who says that.

Can’t say much to Beso as he is completely off the track. And it usually happens to people who think they know every thing.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, I've never said I haven't learnt from other people. I've learnt a lot from you, that's for sure. Your posts have been quite an eye-opener! As for fidelity, my husband remains faithful to me because he chooses to - not because someone else has told him it is a sin to stray. Under those circumstances I wouldn't want him because my self-respect wouldn't allow it, but you wouldn't understand that.

Islam's attitude to sex is no different to that of Christianity. Religion with its dirty, twisted attitude has tainted what is, in fact, a natural act. It determines the criteria, it suppresses human nature and human emotion, and it assumes the moral high ground because its followers allow it to, but in truth, it's no one's business, except those involved, to decide who should sleep with whom.

[keyplus90]

Naomi – Its nice to hear that you have learnt a lot from me, and I hope that it will show up soon.

Coming back to your husband. OK he chooses to be faithful (without being told) but just as the original question (hypothetically) what if he cheats on you, how would you feel?

1- Would you be hurt and do the same to him?

2- You wouldn’t give a damn?

3- You would appreciate and encourage him to make the most of what he decided to choose this time?

Happy new year to all of you and may God almighty fulfil all your good wishes even if you don't believe in him as no one listens apart from him only we can't hear him.

[beso]

Under Islam the choice to divorce is exclusively available to men only. Sure a woman may have a divorce but only when her husband agrees. If he wishes to divorce her she has no say in it.

Instead he may choose to simply take another wife. Indeed he can have as many as four wives. Meanwhile he can treat her badly, ignore her and still demand sex whenever he wants. She has no rights. Like all the Abrahamic religions, Islamic phiolosophy was written by men and affords them all power. It is primitive sexist bigotry.

As far as "being off the track" I was actually commenting on a post that asked why intelligent people bother engaging in debate with Keyplus.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, if you're waiting for what I've learnt from you to show up, you haven't been paying attention to my posts.

Your questions are irrelevant.

[keyplus90]

OK so Beso first – You are absolutely wrong that under Islam only man can divorce. And you are further wrong about having another wife and not treating her properly. I can’t bet about all of the Muslims as few might be treating their wives badly but majority do treat very well. If you don’t agree then ask Naomi as according to her majority of the western women are converting to Islam because they are marrying Muslim men. So they must be treating them better than others. At least they marry and give them their rights instead of dealing under the table. As for Islam, you are completely wrong again. Islam very clearly says that if you cant’ treat them equally then marry only one and it is very clear in Quran. But people like you (if) read the Quran they only read half of the verse.

Naomi – those questions are relevant as your other posts. Unless you say that your own posts were irrelevant. Or do you just like talking about others and not for yourself?

Luna – I think I have already answered your question in the main question I posted. If all what I learnt would be wrong then I would be as all others. At least I am worshiping one God who has not been created instead or worshiping what he created.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, If you want to discuss things that are more appropriate to trashy daytime television, I suggest you post your questions outside R&S. Perhaps you'll find someone there who will oblige you. And it should be evident to anyone who, rather than resorting to wishful thinking, actually considers it honestly, that the majority of western women who are converting to Islam are doing so because they are marrying Muslim men - with the exception of your mother in law of course.

[beso]

Keyplus:
So in Islam a woman my choose to divorce her husband against his will? No, I thought not.

A man must treat his wife well. Who would be the judge of that treatment? A holy man no doubt who would tell her to go home and learn to be a better wife.

So when a man wants relations with another woman he is doing the right thing by marrying her even though he is already married? That is so much more updtanding than a secret affair. Of course women don't have this alternative.

You really have no capacity to see life though any but the eyes of a Moslem man.

You don't seem to appreciate Naomi's point about learning a lot from your posts. She isn't saying she has been moved to appreciate the "wisdom" of Islam but that you have exposed more of what is sick in your putrid faith.

[naomi24]

Yes, indeed, Beso. Keyplus has certainly taught me a lot about the dubious wisdom of Islam.

[keyplus90]

Naomi – It was not me who started all about adultery, women in Islam and all other things on this thread. Few people (including you) have strayed away from the real question. And as I said that Waldo has been the only person so far who has stood up for whatever he believes. But I would like to have the answers to my questions as these issues were raised by you so why can’t you apply that on yourself?

Beso – For divorce perhaps you can read this link,

http://www.islamonlin...lar&cid=1131347551968

For all other issues in your post. I am sure its not only few Muslims who treat women badly. Good and bad are every where. Holly men etc are just misconceptions from where Western people are unable to come out. Islam has proper legal system, justice and punishment. I can bet on few Muslims (individuals or countries) then I am sure I can bet on none Muslims (individual or countries) too. At least we believe that people who will get away with bad behaviour here would be caught out in the hereafter. And that is what this thread is all about. As I believe unfair legal systems, unjust people are another reason that I believe that there is another world after this where none of these things will prevail.

Luna - Its OK, Thanks

[beso]

Read the link. Oh yes I see now. Divorce is the work of the Devil.
Like Christianity, Islam insists that divorce can only cause irreparable trauma to the children of the marriage. Doesn't have to be like this.

It also clearly shows that the grating of a divorce is the sole decision of the Prophet who will be substitude now by a holy man. Well in my morality be nobody's decision but the person involved. A woman should not have to beg for it from some stupid cleric.

Moreover despite the philosophy Islam is a male dominated philosophy and the relaity is that women in many Moslem societies are simply told to go home and be a bettter wife.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, I have answered your question.

Here's what I said. //The concept of this 'hope' you speak of doesn't exist for those who accept that when their lives are over, they will die.// I cannot tell you what hope I have for the future if hope doesn't currently exist.

You raised those issues, not me, and they are as tacky as they are irrelevant, so you'll be getting no answers from me. The point is Muslim men fear punishment, and so they remain faithful - and if they have four wives they remain faithful to them all (which, if we're talking about fidelity, appears to be somewhat of a contradiction). I would consider that to be a personal insult. If a man was faithful to me only for that reason, then I simply wouldn't want him.