I read somewhere that they still stone women to death in Muslim countries....Is this true?

[mibn2cweus]

I initiated this thread to answer the above question asked in another thread as I believe the question warrants is own thread. As you will see 'honour killings' are not just a problem in/for Muslim countries. What was even more surprising to me then that this question was raised is how prevalently this insidious form of injustice is carried out. I regret being the one to bring to light this reality half as much as I regret that the reality exists but I refuse to bury my head in the sand and not speak for those who deserve to be heard that are no longer able to speak on their own behalf. And yet at this point I myself am without words to describe the horrors you are about to witness so, begging your pardon, for now I'll just let the following videos be my answer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGtRVugNjcY

http://www.youtube.co...ch?v=cGCURDsbLvI&NR=1

[ummmm]

Truly shocking.

[Davethedog]

Are you trying to say this isn't a muslim problem because it happened in England and the USA?

"Not just a problem in Muslim countries"? No but a Muslim problem. It isn't global problem.

Are you trying to excuse it?

[Davethedog]

Sorry got a bit mixed up.

Are you trying to excuse it as a global problem? I don't understand the point of your "question"

[naomi24]

Madmen! As the lawyer said, although this is indeed first degree murder, and nothing less, it is important that it is also recognised as 'honour killing'. Our courts can hand out appropriate sentences to the perpetrators, but there is an endemic malevolence in any culture that condones this and protects the murderers. How do we change a primitive mindset that has no desire to be educated? The cure for a barbaric mentality can only come from within the community that supports such appalling acts, but whether that cure will ever be realised is, in my opinion, doubtful.

Dave, I don't believe mibs is by any means trying to excuse it. In my understanding he is highlighting the horrendous truth that honour killings are no longer confined to foreign lands - the evil is spreading around the world - and that is something that should concern us all.

[ummmm]

Dave...the heading is something I said in Naomi's thread. I think mib is pointing out that it still happens.

[Davethedog]

Sorry I was distracted and should have paid more attention my answer is poor.

Why is it spreading? Yes it is going around the world, but not through the indiginous population.

I don't wish to be racists in any way but this is confined to one culture.

They are murders not because of jealousy or mental problems or even anger as I undestand it.

[mibn2cweus]

One thing I look forward to is the various directions a thread takes due to the unique perspectives of the various responders leading me to consider aspects I had not anticipated or considered when initiating the thread. At this point I would like to offer the following distinction: There is no honour in killing except when essential to the defense of individual rights, be they the rights of another or ones own. But ones own rights do not diminish nor supersede the rights of others.

Let me assure those questioning my motives that my intention is not to excuse a practice which is unquestionably an act of unjustifiable murder often carried out in a brutal and gruesome manner. What I’m attempting to do is understand the mind set which leads to the execution of these so called ‘honour’ killings.

[mibn2cweus]

What seems to me to be the overall contributing factor, setting aside for the moment consideration of any possible underlying cause, leading to the conception of this monstrous practice of “honour killings” is the beliefs of its perpetrators concerning the function, role and scope of the family unit. I’m not so sure that my own ideas regarding the proper role of the family unit are in line with the prevalent ‘western’ view, but to my understanding the principal ultimate goal of those having children should be to provide an environment and the tools necessary to reach adulthood while fostering and encouraging a personal goal of achieving independence, the establishment of their own unique identity and the realisation of their personal responsibilities as human beings. Raised in this manner I would not expect such a child to bring dishonour to themselves or those who raised them but if they did, any dishonour due to the parents would not rest with the child but squarely upon the shoulders of the parents who failed to raise them properly. An improperly raised child is not a mistake to be eliminated mercilessly but a human being to be counseled and given the care they neglected or failed to provide in the first place.

In addition to any further answers to the title of this thread, I’d appreciate the thoughts of those who would care to share them, regarding what I have attempted to contribute to the understanding of why these murders take place.

[naomi24]

It's a strange mind that sees no disgrace in committing murder.

[Ankou]

for similar reasons why a rejected person murder their partner, or like that girl who had acid thrown in her face by a boyfrned she dumped.

just deranged individuals not being able to cope as many other do with these things which they consider are to shameful or embarassing to deal with like normal people. i consider that they have a psychopathic episode, that most of us keep in control. i believe that there is within humans the capability - we know our ancestors would have thought nothing of this - to potentially act like this at any given time if circumstances force it, but today i think most of us hold a greater value in human life, whereas many don't.

reason is not to be confused with justification.

[ummmm]

Almost unbelievable EDDIE.

I don't think the thread will get pulled...not by the Ed anyway...

[Ankou]

eddie.....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/1874471.stm

[ummmm]

Words fail me....

I really cannot understand what enjoyment the men get from a relationship with a woman who isn't allowed an opinion.

[jackthehat]

ummmm - the mindset and expectations these men have is very far removed from those of 'western' men.

[naomi24]

Although these people are indeed deranged, it's a cultural issue, not an individual one. Within that culture such killings are accepted (and often expected) as the only solution when what is perceived as dishonour is brought upon the family.

I've read about that incident, Eddie. Crazy people!

There's no reason the thread should be pulled. This is something that in any civilised society should be deemed totally unacceptable, and therefore it demands exposure.

[ummmm]

It would appear that just the men are deranged.

[mibn2cweus]

It is a depraved or deprived mind that can not distinguish murder from justice. Neither is thereby exempt from a responsibility that is shared by those who withhold or confound the means to make that distinction.

The only hope we have for putting an end to or defending ourselves from these reprehensible behaviors is to understand the ignorance of or departures from reason that led them to resort to those behaviors. Why do people do bad things? The mad man because he can not reason, the rest because they have not learned how to reason. The consequences in either case are virtually indistinguishable.

[mibn2cweus]

There are not many people around who can (or would) give accounts of experiences such as yours Eddie. Thanks for sharing . . . while you still can.

PS, If this thread does get pulled please give us a shout somewhere in R&S to let us know you're still around . . .