News3 mins ago
Creationism being taught i schools.
79 Answers
Ok call me stupid(many do) but if you WERE going to teach the above in schools....(me thinking aloud now) surely the lesson would be
"god made everything" the end?
Or is there a lot more in the bible that i dont know about?
"god made everything" the end?
Or is there a lot more in the bible that i dont know about?
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The flying spaghetti monster argument is a terrible one because yeah you can believe it, no one said you couldn't and the fact that you could doesn't make God any more or less feasible. Other religions allow you to have that belief and at first glance the two are just as ludicrous. But the crucial difference is that their belief system is a means to trying to understand man's place in the universe and gives a moral framework to society and a motivation for people to do worthwhile things with their life.
Walking on water and carpenters that rise from the dead are miracles which by their definition defy scientific explanation. If the bible suggested anyone could walk on water and that it is possible by the laws of science it would be incorrect. But they are deliberately impossible as an example of the power of God the whole point is that it can't happen the bible is saying "Wow look this can't and shouldn't happen, but wow he can". The bible teaches these things as impossible without divine power, and that is true by any scientific means, they are impossible without breaking the laws of science.
That's just utilitarianism
Because something has a useful output it can't be based on nonsense.
It's scarcely better than arguing at least Hitler made the trains run on time.
Teaching religion in public schools undermines the concept of rational thought unpon which all of science and mathematics and technology is built
The result is stuff like homeopathy
Because something has a useful output it can't be based on nonsense.
It's scarcely better than arguing at least Hitler made the trains run on time.
Teaching religion in public schools undermines the concept of rational thought unpon which all of science and mathematics and technology is built
The result is stuff like homeopathy
But equally because science is more useful at understanding the physical world doesn't mean it is better than religion for that is utilitarianism too.
Refusing to teach religious teachings in school undermines the concept of humanity as a greater than physical entity and undermines the ideas of philosophy and appreciation of others with conflicting or contrasting cultures and beliefs.
The result is intolerance and a paralysing nihilism, we're all going to die and nothing happens afterwards, we're only here to procreate and fight to get the chance. Not a great recipe for civilisation and culture. Science alone reduces us to merely cleverer animals in better burrows.
Refusing to teach religious teachings in school undermines the concept of humanity as a greater than physical entity and undermines the ideas of philosophy and appreciation of others with conflicting or contrasting cultures and beliefs.
The result is intolerance and a paralysing nihilism, we're all going to die and nothing happens afterwards, we're only here to procreate and fight to get the chance. Not a great recipe for civilisation and culture. Science alone reduces us to merely cleverer animals in better burrows.
Tell you what lets make sure they teach the wonders of the bible
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
Yep God's idea of justice is to make a rape victim marry her attacker.
Funny how these Christians aren't flooding the streets calling for a return to this law of God
They do like to pick and choose!
Read many more of these snippets at http://www.evilbible.com/
Don't have nightmares!
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
Yep God's idea of justice is to make a rape victim marry her attacker.
Funny how these Christians aren't flooding the streets calling for a return to this law of God
They do like to pick and choose!
Read many more of these snippets at http://www.evilbible.com/
Don't have nightmares!
Wow a ridiculous argument taken from a very old and outdated source, well in response scientists and doctors in the first half of the 20th century believed that smoking helped aid recovery from respiratory problems. Their solution to asthma and lung cancer was to smoke more! Funny how you don't see scientists calling for a return to this or the "safe" chlorofluorocarbons or leaded petrol or Newton's theory of corpuscular light or Hippocrates belief that the body is made of four humours or the elements of earth, air, fire and water or the plum pudding model of the atom or...
Religion and religious ethics has changed over time, it had to as the world has changed so much. Science changed too for much the same reasons, respect the right of both to change. Scientists have a very nasty habit of picking and choosing the theory that seems right at the time and often they change when it is no longer the most likely. Fickle indeed.
Religion and religious ethics has changed over time, it had to as the world has changed so much. Science changed too for much the same reasons, respect the right of both to change. Scientists have a very nasty habit of picking and choosing the theory that seems right at the time and often they change when it is no longer the most likely. Fickle indeed.
Sorry jake but it does appear to be different. As a case study the equal rights movement, evolutional biology dictates that to limit and lower competition for resources the people in power would never have allowed equal rights and opportunities. A lot of human behaviour runs against what is expected from an animal viewpoint, charity that doesn't benefit the giver at all, spending time and effort not gaining resources and becoming a stronger competitor. We are physically only animals but there is something else going on, brain scans prove it.
“charity that doesn't benefit the giver at all”, is not a solution - it is the problem. Such mindless charity creates two species, devolving the recipient to the status of a common leach and the giver to that of its sacrificial victim.
Reason is the quality to which you elude, that distinguishes the human species from other animals. Right and wrong, as so often proscribed by religion, are meaningless outside of a context of that which makes their determination possible. Reason provides us with options and the choice which promotes the benefits of reason is the one the evolved rational human being will choose.
Creationism/God is not nor ever has been an explanation of or for anything, but an affront to the human capacity of understanding.
Reason is the quality to which you elude, that distinguishes the human species from other animals. Right and wrong, as so often proscribed by religion, are meaningless outside of a context of that which makes their determination possible. Reason provides us with options and the choice which promotes the benefits of reason is the one the evolved rational human being will choose.
Creationism/God is not nor ever has been an explanation of or for anything, but an affront to the human capacity of understanding.
@symmetry - No? most of the physicists i have read seem to think that they can, although there is probably room for debate -Some theory needs confirmation, so no, its not all tied up in a little bow for you as yet.. but we are definitely getting there, and so far, no supernatural interference required or needed.
Your God is much the same as the one jno appears to be proposing - a God that starts everything in motion, then b*gg*rs off - A God of the ever declining gap - but that doesn't match the God of any of the religions I have read about..... and since when do the laws of nature need supervision in order that they work? No supernatural oversight needed in any of the fundamental laws I have read about.
Your God is much the same as the one jno appears to be proposing - a God that starts everything in motion, then b*gg*rs off - A God of the ever declining gap - but that doesn't match the God of any of the religions I have read about..... and since when do the laws of nature need supervision in order that they work? No supernatural oversight needed in any of the fundamental laws I have read about.
This is my point about respecting the role of God and religion. If you believe charity to be a problem and see the selfless help of the suffering and needy as a bad thing then I truly feel sorrow and despair for you.
The choice which benefits the promotion of reason is the choice which allows unmitigated experimentation in the aid of discovering a cure. It is the reasoning which leads to serious suggestions of sterilisation or euthanasia in famine stricken areas. Logic and reasoning without compassion or ethics can lead to terrifying conclusions, extremism in any form is detrimental to society. The pursuit of reason alone is a dangerous thing, as many atrocities have been committed in its name as in religion's.
The choice which benefits the promotion of reason is the choice which allows unmitigated experimentation in the aid of discovering a cure. It is the reasoning which leads to serious suggestions of sterilisation or euthanasia in famine stricken areas. Logic and reasoning without compassion or ethics can lead to terrifying conclusions, extremism in any form is detrimental to society. The pursuit of reason alone is a dangerous thing, as many atrocities have been committed in its name as in religion's.
Well I am a physicist and the current standard model is the best we have and yes it covers a lot, but there a lot more problems and discrepancies than with almost any other major scientific theory. The imbalance of matter/antimatter and the problem of dark matter/energy are by no means trivial.
I wasn't saying that the laws of nature require divine oversight, merely that this could be the case and we would not know. Most religions can accommodate a God or Gods that started things and then did nothing or nothing tangible. The Christian God oversees all we do but deliberately takes no active role in our world, He only forgives or judges our behaviour after death.
I wasn't saying that the laws of nature require divine oversight, merely that this could be the case and we would not know. Most religions can accommodate a God or Gods that started things and then did nothing or nothing tangible. The Christian God oversees all we do but deliberately takes no active role in our world, He only forgives or judges our behaviour after death.
@symmetry - How peculiar that given all the various creation myths that hang around our collective human consciousness you believe that the christian myth is the correct one. And this belief, that the christian faith is somehow the truth when compared to all the other religions, is based upon on what exactly?
So, you believe in a universe with a supernatural thumb on the reset button, continually overseeing the laws of nature ( which show no evidence at all that they actually need any sort of oversight), just in case they go wrong? What a petty, miserly existence to lead, a kind of night watchman to the universe!
I just don't get why you think such a low visibility God would be worth worshipping at all... According to your version of theology, this God watches over all of us, doesn't intercede at all, then judges us all after death? What kind of petty - minded tyrant is that? According to you and your fellow travellers, God has the power to alter or change the laws of nature - but then won't intervene to prevent a tsunami killiing thousands?
I just cannot get my head around such an accepting, unevidenced faith in a deity that never intervenes, but presumes to judge us ( and against inflexible standards laid down 2000 years ago) once we have died - and all this comes from a scientist? I am a scientist too,and were I to hold your kind of views, the cognitive dissonance would result in brain melt!
Back to the point of the original post - Keep creation mythology away from science lessons. If you really, really, feel the need to teach it in comparative RE,or Fable and Myth.
So, you believe in a universe with a supernatural thumb on the reset button, continually overseeing the laws of nature ( which show no evidence at all that they actually need any sort of oversight), just in case they go wrong? What a petty, miserly existence to lead, a kind of night watchman to the universe!
I just don't get why you think such a low visibility God would be worth worshipping at all... According to your version of theology, this God watches over all of us, doesn't intercede at all, then judges us all after death? What kind of petty - minded tyrant is that? According to you and your fellow travellers, God has the power to alter or change the laws of nature - but then won't intervene to prevent a tsunami killiing thousands?
I just cannot get my head around such an accepting, unevidenced faith in a deity that never intervenes, but presumes to judge us ( and against inflexible standards laid down 2000 years ago) once we have died - and all this comes from a scientist? I am a scientist too,and were I to hold your kind of views, the cognitive dissonance would result in brain melt!
Back to the point of the original post - Keep creation mythology away from science lessons. If you really, really, feel the need to teach it in comparative RE,or Fable and Myth.
Im not at all religious, I don't believe the Christian theology is true I merely used it as an example as it is the one most English people are familiar with. I don't believe there is any supernatural entity anywhere and when we die that is all.
But I feel strongly that the arrogant and total dismissal from both the religious and scientific communities towards each other is detrimental. I am not religious but I recognise and appreciate the power and influence of religion and religious thought. Science does not provide any guidance or insight into any area of life beyond the physical and actual. What you dismiss as fable and myth are the most powerful means we have of understanding so much of our world and they are what unite people as a common culture. Stories are used to teach children about the world, whether religious or secular they are powerful formative influences.
Science and religion are two sides of the same coin, they both try and comprehend the world around us. I don't think creationism should be taught as any scientific fact, but scientific theory and the philosophy of science should be taught. And with this theologic philosophy should be taught to give greater depth and understanding.
Religion has such a strong and universal effect on humans throughout history, to ignore it is a gross breach of scientific practice, everything should be investigated. Same humans, same world, same coin.
But I feel strongly that the arrogant and total dismissal from both the religious and scientific communities towards each other is detrimental. I am not religious but I recognise and appreciate the power and influence of religion and religious thought. Science does not provide any guidance or insight into any area of life beyond the physical and actual. What you dismiss as fable and myth are the most powerful means we have of understanding so much of our world and they are what unite people as a common culture. Stories are used to teach children about the world, whether religious or secular they are powerful formative influences.
Science and religion are two sides of the same coin, they both try and comprehend the world around us. I don't think creationism should be taught as any scientific fact, but scientific theory and the philosophy of science should be taught. And with this theologic philosophy should be taught to give greater depth and understanding.
Religion has such a strong and universal effect on humans throughout history, to ignore it is a gross breach of scientific practice, everything should be investigated. Same humans, same world, same coin.
Looking back at my posts I never once suggested I was religious or displayed a particular bias. Curious how people jumped to that conclusion to criticise me and not my point. Also remember LazyGun that the standards of religion are no more or less flexible than those of science, a lot of churches now allow female members of the clergy and divorce, the Christian faith abolished payments to the church to get into Heaven. They still have ground to make up in contraception and gay rights I admit but it changes in response to how people change. Science changes in response to how the physical world (or what we know of it) changes.
@symmetry - so now our morals, ethics, and general behaviour toward others can only come about through religion? - sorry, thats just not true. We can still educate children about the way of the world and the way we should behave toward others, without using outdated, outmoded faith based models - which in and of themselves perpetuate divisiveness and discord.
No suprise that I thought you were religious, having read your posts.Your argument boils down to " cant we all just get along" and " will the pesky atheists stop being so strident" . Well, no. I dont believe religion has anything to offer over a proper humanities education - and you could do worse than adopt a scientific worldview - rational, objective and sceptical.
No suprise that I thought you were religious, having read your posts.Your argument boils down to " cant we all just get along" and " will the pesky atheists stop being so strident" . Well, no. I dont believe religion has anything to offer over a proper humanities education - and you could do worse than adopt a scientific worldview - rational, objective and sceptical.
Reason does not exclude helping others, it defines what is helpful. None of us would be here without the help of others and being here would not be worthwhile if not for an understanding of what is in fact helpful. You need to make this distinction between helping and mindlessly helping to perpetuate the need for it. Religion makes such a distinction impossible and dismisses reason as the means for making that determination.
Reason is not unmitigated, it is disciplined thinking. Treating symptoms of a disease is not a cure. Reason leads the rational mind to seek the cause of disease. Reason is not the initiation of force to achieve persuasion. Reason allows us to understand the cause of famine and to mitigate its effects. Reasoning (the application of unerring logic to thinking) is the precondition of determining compassion and ethics.
Religion and faith are the exit door of the domain of reason, removing us from the realm of determining what is reasonable and how to obtain the benefits of reason. Reason is not a part time diversion to be practiced when convenient but must be applied consistently, and unerringly to all aspects of reality. Selective reasoning, subordinated to the percepts of religion is the danger.
Reason is not unmitigated, it is disciplined thinking. Treating symptoms of a disease is not a cure. Reason leads the rational mind to seek the cause of disease. Reason is not the initiation of force to achieve persuasion. Reason allows us to understand the cause of famine and to mitigate its effects. Reasoning (the application of unerring logic to thinking) is the precondition of determining compassion and ethics.
Religion and faith are the exit door of the domain of reason, removing us from the realm of determining what is reasonable and how to obtain the benefits of reason. Reason is not a part time diversion to be practiced when convenient but must be applied consistently, and unerringly to all aspects of reality. Selective reasoning, subordinated to the percepts of religion is the danger.
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