Best Before Dates-Holy Communion wafer

[Marijn]

Are there best before dates on Holy Communion wafer packets? Catholics believe in transubstantiation i.e that really IS the flesh and blood of Christ (not just a representation of it). So is it 2000 year old Jesus's flesh they are eating, or current Jesus's flesh? Is it Jesus's flesh when it's being made in the factory? Or when the priest blesses it? How does the priest know he is really doing that properly? Can paedophile priest's have the power to change the wafers into real flesh (if so, how come? as they're sinners, not real priests) So the people who've been taking communion from sinners, haven't really recieved Communion afterall. Can you get drunk on a bottle of Communion wine, if so, how? As it's really blood isn't it?
I expect 95% of Catholics don't even know they're supposed to believe it ACTUALLY IS the body and blood of Christ.

[jomifl]

According to my 59 year old dictionary transubstantiation is exactly as Notafish defined it and an accident is an unplanned event. If the church has cunningly changed the meanings of the words of the English language then It should do the decent thing and let us know which meaning applies in a given argument. Discussion would be much simplified if we used the standard meanings of word as defined in the many English language dictionaries commonly available. I suggest that we stick to the aformentioned dictionary definitions and not to those contained in some arcane book of weasel words conjured up by the church for the purpose of confusing the laity. I am mystified as to how anything can be something else simultaneously. Agreed something can have simultaneous multiple functions, A telephone can also be a paperweight and a perch for a fly but its substance remains the same. By the way I think you are confusing the meanings of substance and organisation in your argument about the reduction of a person to their elements. The substance remains the same on an elemental level, what makes the living person is the organisation of that substance.

[jomifl]

The poterion fairtrade communion wine @ £58.72 per case is better value and just as holy, try it with pringles for that 'closer to god' experience

[Huderon]

jomifil, I did say that the definitions of substance and accident were philosophical definitons - they come from Aristotle, but I guess you can pick up the phone and tell him he was wrong. And I was reasonably sure I'd explained what the words meant in the context of transubstantiation.
Even in philosophical terms those words have changed their meanings over the years, however when the Catholic church finally settled on a definition of transubstantiatioin in the 1500's, the idea of it had been around, and the word itself had been in use, for several hundred years. As strange as it may seem, that was a period when philosophy, logic and science were all heavily influenced by the works of some ancient Greek guy called .. umm ... oh yes, Aristotle.
But since you like it plain and simple, the doctrine of transubstantiation comes out of a period when the meaning of substance was that used by Aristotle, not your 1951 dictionary. So for that doctine, it's Aristotle's meaning of the word which counts, along with the related meaning of accidents, not the one we use today.
But if you want modern substitutes for those terms, how about essence and attributes ? Perhaps not, essence can get slippery too I imagine.
In the end it all comes down to faith. For a Catholic who accepts the teachings of the church, then for them, at the moment of consecration, the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ. They may look, feel, smell and taste like bread and wine, but for the Catholic their fundamental nature has been changed.
Someone who isn't a Catholic may well think that the Catholics are being conned, flim-flamed, fooled, taken for a ride or whatever other way you might choose to put it, but as the beliefs of Catholics don't have any significant effect on the lives of those who aren't, does it really matter ?

[WaldoMcFroog]

Really? Don't they? We could only wish that were true.

Here's someone putting it rather better than I could: http://www.youtube.co...wL8xk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEhtOhwL8xk&feature=related

[Answerprancer]

Perhaps if you get ill from eating ecclesiastically out of date communion waffer you should have read the label on the packaging of your chosen religeon.

[mibn2cweus]

//In the end it all comes down to faith// . . . and that's why we should all be concerned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs-KZqTTyGs

[Answerprancer]

..indeed, and don't fear the Muslim !

[Mamyalynne]

Indeed and well said you, there is nothing to fear but fear itself.

[naomi24]

//there is nothing to fear but fear itself. //

Groan...............

[sandyRoe]

With the armour of God's love around you, you don't need to fear anything.

[Answerprancer]

Blimey Sandy ! ...that was a bit "Sunday service". I hope there was a glint in your eye as you typed it !

[naomi24]

Hello Sandy. You've clearly watched and absorbed those two videos too. ;o)

[sandyRoe]

Naomi, I don't need to watch videos running down my faith. It's bad enough coming in here to AB and being assailed on all sides by agnostics and atheists

[jomifl]

Hi Huderon, I must say that I had no idea that words had an alternative set of meanings, ie. philosophical meanings, it would seem that the catholic church has been a little remiss in not making it clear that the words it uses don't mean what we assume they mean. I've always gone along with the idea that languages use a set of words that have a formal or generally accepted meaning as defined in dictionaries. This idea of reverting to aristotlean meanings when losing an argument is a neat trick but doesn't really fool anyone. We have seen that technique used quite often in the religious discussions on AB. Next time I am losing an argument I will revert to the pythagorean or euclidean meanings and probably chuck in a few made up ones for good measure. Waldo is absolutely correct. If religion could be kept in the church or temple it wouldn't bother non-believers, unfortunately when it gets out of the churches it kills people and just so that its followers can go to heaven (or so they believe).

[naomi24]

Quite right Sandy! Good for you!! Why should you watch videos that are only going to tell you things you'd rather not know? :o)

[jomifl]

Aristotle spoke english? how prescient !

[sandyRoe]

All I need to know on the subject comes between the black leather covers of my bible.
You keeping well, Naomi?

[naomi24]

Jomifl, 'Rapture' is the one that always confuses me. A Christian's idea of rapture is nothing like mine. Funny that. ;o)

Sandy, mmmm........ is that a halo? (Not so bad thanks).

[RATTER15]

SandyRoe, I don't think the videos were actually running down your faith, they were just very factual but then again, you are a Christian, so by default, probably not really interested in facts!