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How do cherry-picking believers decide what to believe?
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One would think that a person who could think rationally would be consistent about it. But this seems not to be so. Below is a thread about a chap who rejects God but believes in an afterlife, even though both beliefs have a similar irrational status.
How many other cases are there? People who, for example, reject astrology but believe in Tarot cards; who reject dowsing but accept ouija boards; who reject crystal balls but accept ESP; who reject weeping statues but accept alien abductions; who reject fairies but accept angels…..and so on. How do they discriminate between one lot of nonsense and another? What criteria do they use?
I anticipate one possible answer: a believer (naomi perhaps?) might say that she believes in ghosts because she has seen one. But this cannot always be the answer, surely. What is?
How many other cases are there? People who, for example, reject astrology but believe in Tarot cards; who reject dowsing but accept ouija boards; who reject crystal balls but accept ESP; who reject weeping statues but accept alien abductions; who reject fairies but accept angels…..and so on. How do they discriminate between one lot of nonsense and another? What criteria do they use?
I anticipate one possible answer: a believer (naomi perhaps?) might say that she believes in ghosts because she has seen one. But this cannot always be the answer, surely. What is?
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"to me a large part of true friendship is a degree of acceptance.... "
not disputing that woofgang. hence my sentence previously, that it does them no harm to let you believe they do not doubt you. so they might accept you have beliefs but have an underlying doubt about that belief itself - that just becomes acceptance of you, not what you believe in. when you try to convince them of your belief, that is when you have to reopen the books.
not disputing that woofgang. hence my sentence previously, that it does them no harm to let you believe they do not doubt you. so they might accept you have beliefs but have an underlying doubt about that belief itself - that just becomes acceptance of you, not what you believe in. when you try to convince them of your belief, that is when you have to reopen the books.
Those who aggressively deny any possibility of any form of, for want of a better word, ESP, are being very narrow-minded and incredibly arrogant.
Throughout history there have been many things that were unexplained and originally attributed to some paranormal phenomenon only to later become part of science.
Take magnetic direction finding for example. It was no doubt observed in birds before magnetism was even glimpsed in the first primitive compass. Those birds would have been attributed some unknown sense that some people probably denied as ridiculous.
As it turns out magnetic direction finding is quite common, even being found in humans. I know from experience that mine is hardwired for the northern hemisphere (courtesy of my ancestors). Unfortunately it is quite a strong sense and usually the best option is to go opposite to my intuition.
I spent a few weeks in China where I couldn't get lost if I tried while my colleague who could navigate a boat out of sight of the shore in Australia turned the wrong way literally every time.
I have had "psychic" experience which defy any conventional explanation.
Nature and evolution are remarkable in their ability to make advantage of incredibly subtle phenomenon. While we still don't even understand the brain or Quantum Mechanics, let alone yet to be discovered sciences, it would be foolish indeed to rule out any possibility of psychic events.
Throughout history there have been many things that were unexplained and originally attributed to some paranormal phenomenon only to later become part of science.
Take magnetic direction finding for example. It was no doubt observed in birds before magnetism was even glimpsed in the first primitive compass. Those birds would have been attributed some unknown sense that some people probably denied as ridiculous.
As it turns out magnetic direction finding is quite common, even being found in humans. I know from experience that mine is hardwired for the northern hemisphere (courtesy of my ancestors). Unfortunately it is quite a strong sense and usually the best option is to go opposite to my intuition.
I spent a few weeks in China where I couldn't get lost if I tried while my colleague who could navigate a boat out of sight of the shore in Australia turned the wrong way literally every time.
I have had "psychic" experience which defy any conventional explanation.
Nature and evolution are remarkable in their ability to make advantage of incredibly subtle phenomenon. While we still don't even understand the brain or Quantum Mechanics, let alone yet to be discovered sciences, it would be foolish indeed to rule out any possibility of psychic events.
beso, it would appear that i have similar skills / intuition to you. no matter where i am, in the car, walking, etc. i always find my way. whereas i have friends who couldn't find their own arse with both hands and a map.
i don't assume this is a 'psychic' ability though. i don't claim to know the epistemology surrounding this, but suspect one day a scientist in a lab somewhere may identify a particular gene, or area of the brain that has a natural processor for establishing direction from a known source (memory, experience, magnetic fields etc). some humans will have a weaker sense in this part of their control centre, but a stronger sense for some other skill in another part.
i would be surprised if this particular skill turns out to be a psychic ability, but that doesn't mean i rule it out completely.
i don't assume this is a 'psychic' ability though. i don't claim to know the epistemology surrounding this, but suspect one day a scientist in a lab somewhere may identify a particular gene, or area of the brain that has a natural processor for establishing direction from a known source (memory, experience, magnetic fields etc). some humans will have a weaker sense in this part of their control centre, but a stronger sense for some other skill in another part.
i would be surprised if this particular skill turns out to be a psychic ability, but that doesn't mean i rule it out completely.
"Magnetic guidance was probably considered a psychic phenomenon before the real cause was understood"
it was, lodestone was commonly used in geomancy and fortune-telling.
but it was also used at the same time to navigate ships and passages. some believed the geomancy, whilst at the same time many people realised that it actually had a tangible, beneficial and evidential use that had nothing to do with psychic abilities.
it was, lodestone was commonly used in geomancy and fortune-telling.
but it was also used at the same time to navigate ships and passages. some believed the geomancy, whilst at the same time many people realised that it actually had a tangible, beneficial and evidential use that had nothing to do with psychic abilities.
Beso, what do you mean, you're not prepared to rule out all physchic phenomena?
Stop being so wishy-washy and irrational man. We need a decision from you, and we need it now, and it needs to be based only on the science that is currently available to us at this point in time.
There is no room for grey areas and no time to defer judgement until a later date - that's just intellectual laziness.
Warning: If your decision differs from the correct one, you may well be branded as a dabbler in dangerous mumbo-jumbo and sent to a camp for compulsory re-education and enlightenment.
Stop being so wishy-washy and irrational man. We need a decision from you, and we need it now, and it needs to be based only on the science that is currently available to us at this point in time.
There is no room for grey areas and no time to defer judgement until a later date - that's just intellectual laziness.
Warning: If your decision differs from the correct one, you may well be branded as a dabbler in dangerous mumbo-jumbo and sent to a camp for compulsory re-education and enlightenment.
Yes, sorry, woofgang, you did answer my question, as naomi reminds me. You said that you divide up irrational things according to how they affected you personally, without, apparently, caring about their irrationality.
That's fair enough. I asked for an answer, not specifying that it had to make sense, and you supplied one. I apologise.
ludwig, what an easy intellectual life you have. You don't know about something, you don't bother to look into the facts about it, you then file it under 'pending'. Do you seriously not realise that if you were to look into those facts you could take the matter out of that pending tray without having to take my word for it? Is that too much trouble? Apparently so.
naomi, I don't know how it happened but you and I seem to have parted intellectual company somewhere along that long line of our debating together. Your attitude now is to accuse me of all manner of attitudes and opinions that I don't hold. And that's fine in a free country. Be my guest.
Where you are wildly wrong (as is ludwig) is in accusing me of holding fixed opinions based on some sort anti-spiritual dogma, refusing to believe in things out of sheer cussedness.
Pompous as it may sound, I arrive at conclusions by using the tools of fact, evidence, reason, argument, logic and commonsense. If those tools had led me to accept the afterlife, the soul, ghosts, ESP, fairies and any of those other things I listed in my original question, then I would have done so willingly. Why shouldn't I? I accept other things where that process leads me.
About one thing, though, you may be right -that my question was daft. I suppose it was stupid of me to expect a rational answer from someone who would have to admit (to qualify as an answerer) to believing in at least one irrational thing.
Ah well, all part of life's rich pageantry.
That's fair enough. I asked for an answer, not specifying that it had to make sense, and you supplied one. I apologise.
ludwig, what an easy intellectual life you have. You don't know about something, you don't bother to look into the facts about it, you then file it under 'pending'. Do you seriously not realise that if you were to look into those facts you could take the matter out of that pending tray without having to take my word for it? Is that too much trouble? Apparently so.
naomi, I don't know how it happened but you and I seem to have parted intellectual company somewhere along that long line of our debating together. Your attitude now is to accuse me of all manner of attitudes and opinions that I don't hold. And that's fine in a free country. Be my guest.
Where you are wildly wrong (as is ludwig) is in accusing me of holding fixed opinions based on some sort anti-spiritual dogma, refusing to believe in things out of sheer cussedness.
Pompous as it may sound, I arrive at conclusions by using the tools of fact, evidence, reason, argument, logic and commonsense. If those tools had led me to accept the afterlife, the soul, ghosts, ESP, fairies and any of those other things I listed in my original question, then I would have done so willingly. Why shouldn't I? I accept other things where that process leads me.
About one thing, though, you may be right -that my question was daft. I suppose it was stupid of me to expect a rational answer from someone who would have to admit (to qualify as an answerer) to believing in at least one irrational thing.
Ah well, all part of life's rich pageantry.
// ludwig, what an easy intellectual life you have. You don't know about something, you don't bother to look into the facts about it, you then file it under 'pending'. Do you seriously not realise that if you were to look into those facts you could take the matter out of that pending tray without having to take my word for it? Is that too much trouble? Apparently so. //
Oh dear chakka. Is this the best you can come back with? Has it not occurred to you that I might not be particularly interested in the subject? Do I really have to go off and research something just to keep you happy? As I tried to explain earlier - there really is no pressing need for me to form an opinion about ESP - it has no bearing on my life.
Anyway, I'd like to know your opinion about the declining dung beetle population in the Himalyan foothills -You don't know much about about it? - you haven't looked into it? - well Is that really too much trouble for you you lazy git? What an easy intellectual life you have.
That's my last word. Feel free to carry on arguing if you want to.
Oh dear chakka. Is this the best you can come back with? Has it not occurred to you that I might not be particularly interested in the subject? Do I really have to go off and research something just to keep you happy? As I tried to explain earlier - there really is no pressing need for me to form an opinion about ESP - it has no bearing on my life.
Anyway, I'd like to know your opinion about the declining dung beetle population in the Himalyan foothills -You don't know much about about it? - you haven't looked into it? - well Is that really too much trouble for you you lazy git? What an easy intellectual life you have.
That's my last word. Feel free to carry on arguing if you want to.
The next time I hear from him I expect some definite opinions on that Himalayan dung beetle situation. Unfortunately for him he hasn't got a pending tray so there's nowhere he can park it.
Now I've made him aware of the situation he really has no excuse other than laziness to not go off and research it thoroughly and report back with a black and white opinion on the matter.
over and out.
Now I've made him aware of the situation he really has no excuse other than laziness to not go off and research it thoroughly and report back with a black and white opinion on the matter.
over and out.
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