Refusing to sign childs passport application

[Dom Tuk]

A colleague (who i got along well with) recently refused to countersign my childs passport (renewal!!!) photo as a true likeness as he 'had not seen my child'. I was taken aback as in my opinion unless one is present at the conception there is no way anyone can sign the child as being mine. nevertheless I waited for my revenge until yesterday when he shoved a paper under my nose requesting a donation for a charity and i declined saying 'how do i know that you will not pocket the cash'.Was i being overtly vengeful as my wife thinks. She says i should apologise. I dont think so. Any thoughts?

[Lillabet]

Whilst in actual fact to sign a child's photo for a passport application you need to have known the adult who is signing the form (you) for 2 years it would be a common belief that you need to have known the child - after all you are certifying that the photo is a true likeness of the child. That is what you write on the back - not that you know the genetic parentage of the child...

This is of course in common sense terms daft if you know the parent and have never met the child. If you believe that you should know the child (even if your belief is wrong) then his actions are understandable. If you explained that he simply needed to have know you and he still refused then maybe he was being a little unreasonable...

Given that you 'waited for' your revenge I'm guessing that these two incidents were a little time apart. He probably has not linked your refusal to give to charity - which carried an implication that you believed he might steal your money - to his refusal to sign the photo. He probably thinks you were rude. I would apologise if I were you.

[Wispy68]

He sounds like a right 'up himself' pillock! Who does he think he is? I wouldn't apologise. Sounds childish to say this, but you're quits now!!!

[inferno]

Dom Tuk, It is you who is totally in the wrong here. The guidance says that the person countersigning the form is stating that the photo is a good likeness. If they don't know what the child looks like how on earth can they sign it?

[ludwig]

I can see both sides to this. I wouldn't have thought he was being deliberately awkward or unfriendly , just trying to play by the rules, but I can see why you'd be annoyed. I don't think you should apologise - just leave it as it is but don't hold a grudge, and move back to being on friendly terms again.

[Dom Tuk]

Inferno...i see your point. But I did not challenge him when he refused to sign the form. I just was hurt that his actions implied that i may be committing fraud/crime and that the photograph that i was asking him to sign may be fraudulent. Hence later by not giving him any money and stating that i am not sure that the money is not going into his pocket i am accusing him of the same. So as far as i can see we are even stevens...why should i be in the wrong??

[butter1]

Exactly, even stevens... don't apologise...just try and forget about it now and move on.

[netibiza]

Good on you Dom Tuk - revenge is everything, maybe petty but at least you feel better, I know I would and it saves you from running him over in a car LOL

[Octavius]

So you got your revenge on the charity.  Well done.

[jno]

sorry, but inferno is right. Signing a passport photo means you are saying it looks like the person it purports to show. If you haven't seen the child, you can't. It's the law.

Whether you apologise for not giving to charity because you don't like the collector, is up to you and is really a separate issue. But if you were rude and you meant to be rude, and you aren't sorry, then there's no point in saying that you are.

[Dom Tuk]

So Octavius I take it that you give to every charity that comes your way?. Dont throw that guilt at me. I have a different charity asking for donations on a daily basis through the chldrens schoolbag and i dont lose any sleep over denying a majority of them my hard earned cash. i do my bit for charity as i am sure you do. I dont see the point of your post.

[Insane Wally]

I would have done exactly the same as you, but thinking about it, the guy may feel hurt at your inclination of him pocketing the cash, although an apology would warrant an explaination.

Just ignore people who put you down like Octavius, I'm sure they've lost count of the number of charities they've refused to give to.

[twiglet4frog]

i would say this is all depending on how well u know this collegue, if he is just someone u have known in the office for a few months or a year then it isnt unreasonable for him to be weary about signing to say he legal accepts the pic is your child if he hasnt ever seen your child, however if it is an old friend that u have worked with for say 10 or 15 years then maybe they are being a little overcautious.

Personally tho what u were asking of this collegue is actually illegal to sign to say it is your child when they have never actually met or seen your child and that they are well within there right to refuse on that grounds and u should accept it. I think not offering towards charity purely on the grounds of spite over the passport is a little childish unless u genuinlydidnt want to give money or didnt believe it would go to the charity concerned as to which u would also be within your right and that collegue would accept that.

End of the day u cant make people break the law just cos u want a passport and they dont want to get involved as what if u did the same for him and it turned out he was raking in �5000 a month towards his retirement smuggling peole in the country under false passports u have inadvertantly helped to do and become an accomplice to. If u could really trust this person and they were such aa good friend then how come that u havent introduced them to your family already?

I think the person needs some slack cutting sorry

[undercovers]

you asked him to sign a false statement and then accused him of theft / fraud, this is what he will think. I don't think his refusing to sign your childs passport picture has anything to do with you - more to do with him and his moral code. My grandmother never lied and neither will my mother, in any circumstances, this is just something they believe in and yes it has upset people (mum refused to be god parent because she couldn't promise educate the child about god - she did suggest ways of getting round the promise [e.g. she would provide religious education about all religions] but they didn't want that) and got them in trouble (telling the truth to the inland revenue when you hardly earn any money just gets them asking questions and accusing you of cheating on the tax), but that is how they live and they are happier that way. I know it is annoying (i really know) but if he won't lie you should really expect him too - even if you think it's a trivial matter... say sorry and forget about it

[kempie]

twiglet4frog - as Lillabet stated, when countersigning the photo of a child (i.e. under 16) the signatory is attesting that they have known the adult completing the form (specifically section 9) for 2 years or more NOT the child itself.

This is a common misconception (no pun intended) which may have lead to the problem at hand.

[jake-the-peg]

Well of course you were being overtly vengeful - you've said so yourself when you say you waited for your revenge.

Whatever about the why's and wherefores you should now judge what value you put on having a good relationship with this colleague.

 I doubt they'll go "Oh my gosh how could I have done that I must go over and patch things up"

So if you want good relations with this person you'll probably have to go and explain why you bit their head off and appologise.

If you don't then don't bother.

[Dom Tuk]

twiglet4frog...I agree with the points you are making and believe me i have gone through them endlessly in my head. However a few points need clarification here. Not everyone can countersign a true likeness on a passport photograph. From my memory it is either a police officer, a civil servant, a JP, GP, Bank manager, school head teacher and a few more types, Lillabet may have the correct info. So from the list above only a school head teacher and GP could be expected to know the child and certify to its true likeness. the other categories of people are hardly likely to know your child. I could not use the head teacher as i did not have the opportunity to go to the school. Making GP appointments to sign a photo means you could be there till the last patient and his grandmother has gone. So in all other cases the actual likeness certification is academic and in most likelihood is done on trust. I take the point that this leaves the door open to fraud and maybe many many people have got passports for people they should not have. In my case the person I asked was a collegaue of 4 years, a law enforcement officer like me, and both of us have undergone the stringent security clearances that our jobs require. With this background a refusal to sign was out of the ordinary. Another colleague overheard the exchange and signed the photograph in the presence of the officer who declined (as she realised that i was put in a very awkward situation). This is the complete story of the incident.

[kempie]

Once again... the 'professional' person signing the photo does NOT need to know the child.

http://www.passport.gov.uk/faqs/faq.asp?strAreaNo=321_2&intelement=529

[Lillabet]

I think what I tried to say in my original post was that it is possible that this person mistakenly believed that he would be breaking the law if he signed despite not knowing your child. As someone who works in law enforcement he might be supre sensitive to doing anything 'dodgy' Actually he would have been doing nothing wrong.

He might well therefore have refused to sign due to a mistake rather than any desire to upset you and might be very surprised that you are upset with him.

If he hasn't realised that you are upset, or if the photo incident was a while ago and he has forgotten, your reaction to a request for sponsorship might seem strange. Accusing him of theft is rude. Having said that if there is no sign that he is put out there is probably little to be gained from an endless postmortem and you could just both move on...

Oh and for your info here's a link to the list of acceptable countersignatories: http://www.passport.gov.uk/faqs/faq.asp?strAreaNo=321_1&intelement=454