Judas - Bad Press According To Church Figures

[agchristie]

Does he 'hold an important mirror to our own human condition'?

Would Jesus have forgiven him?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/12193826/Judas-has-had-a-lousy-press-as-prominent-clerics-call-for-a-reappraisal-of-the-disciple-who-betrayed-Jesus.html

[Togo]

The Bridgewater canal will have to do nails.

[nailit]

or festival park waterworld Togo

[Togo]

Wesport Lake has a little beach as well nails.

[nailit]

Ah! I forgot about Westport lake Tog's, havnt been there for eons.

[Togo]

Caught my first pike there nails aged about 8. ag will not be pleased with us though for diverting. Sorry ag.

[nailit]

Yes, apologies ag for diverting.
Fender, JW's dont believe in hell, but goodlife will be afraid of annhiliation if he questions.

[baza]

birdie, as you know we will never agree but I do like some of your well thought out comments, always a good read.
As to your last line, yes I do feel good about myself and my fellow man/woman.

[maggiebee]

I'm going to be watching this:

Judas not ‘pantomime villain’ we think, says TV Gogglebox vicar
On Good Friday, Revd Kate Bottley, the Anglican vicar who stars in Gogglebox, will present an hour-long documentary on BBC 1 entitled In the Footsteps of Judas.
She travels to Jerusalem and discovers that Judas betrayal was more complex than we might think. ‘It wasn't OK, but the black and white narrative of pinning him as the bad guy – that's a little bit too easy,’ says Kate.

Think this should be a very interesting programme. Like looking at things from different angles.

[maggiebee]

Oops, apologies folks, should have read agchristie's post correctly before blundering in and repeating what she posted. Having said that, in answer to canary's question I quote

Ecclesiastes 3:2 There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven-- A time to give birth and a time to die; A time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted.

So, plant your seed tatties at the appointed time ha ha

[Hypognosis]

@agchristie

//Does he 'hold an important mirror to our own human condition'? //

For some reason, I am unable to process this question properly because the customary context for its use is when it is about an artist, "holding a mirror to reality", or "reflecting on the human condition". You shouldn't have to put it into different words but it would help me, greatly.

//Would Jesus have forgiven him? //

I thought he did forgive him? More than that, he all but ordered him to "do what must be done" (or equivalent). Chosen for the task, not merely the person who was standing close by when the task came to mind.

The ultimate in "taking one for the team" dirty jobs.

It is peculiar though. God could have terminated his earthly presence at any time, by any means and achieved the whole sin-redemption end-goal but, as atalanta said, that would mean no cross and, if it was a particularly destructive form of death, resurrection might have been an awkward business.

So why drag Judas, the disapproving senior clerics, Pilate and sundry Romans into this whole theatrical denoument? Man must betray Jesus and carry out his execution? Why?

Okay, I realise that the Resurrection doesn't convince unless we have a definitive death, in front of many witnesses (under dramatic skies etc.) and the suffering is important so it has to be crucifixion, not decapitation.

One Gaulish rebel leader was, famously, taken to Rome, imprisoned for some time, then paraded through the streets before being ritually garotted. Strange how Jesus (rebel leader) wasn't subject to this traditional punishment.

[Hypognosis]

@agchristie

It is interesting to note that, in the artworks, Jesus and the other 11 disciples are portrayed with pale, western European features whereas Judas is depicted in a way that we might recognise today as an anti-Semitic parody.

Twelve is a nice, round, number and I wonder if Judas was an afterthought, added on by early Christians to focus their hate on Jews who were still resistant to conversion. They blamed Jews, in general, for Jesus's death (forgetting that it was essential to the story) and personified them in a new character: Judas. Even the name seems intended to resonate with their collective name.

Was it once a common forename? Only archaeology can tell us that. The Bible is remarkably sparing with character names (one use each, unless someone knows differently) and I was thinking of posting a question about that very aspect. Slightly tangential, here?

[Zacs-Master]

If Judas was an afterthought, then why did they 'sub' him with Matthias?

With regard to 'the paintings', I don't think Judas is shown as anti-Semitic; just evil, in the same way any storyteller would cast a baddie with such looks.

[naomi24]

No Judas, no Christianity. Christians should be commending him for saving them.

[Zacs-Master]

The Gnostics do!

[Hypognosis]

@Zacs-master

Had to look him up on Wiki.

"Patronage
alcoholics; carpenters; {2 US cities} ; smallpox; tailors; hope; perseverance"

How they got from the Hebrew "Mattityahu" to the Greek Ματθιος is a puzzle as the second t-sound vanishes in the remix.

If they were that free and easy about mangling character names, how many other words got fudged in conversion from Hebrew? I wonder if Torah scholars have ever cast an eye over the King James version and spotted any significant twists of translation?

p.s. Three versions of how and where he died. Clever chap!

[Hypognosis]

09:00am BBC1 "In the Footsteps of Judas", for the research-minded.

I'm off out; recording it.

[Hypognosis]

@agchristie

Disappointingly, there was nothing in the TV programme which was a surprise as all the supposedly shocking conclusion had been thouroughly spoilerised by the Telegraph article (was it a TV review/preview?, ag?) or by this discussion.