Henry V

[mikey4444]

I have seen it written, that Henry VII was the only Welshman to sit on the English throne, as he was in Pembroke Castle.

But Henry V was born in Monmouth Castle, which is now part of Wales, so can he also be termed a "Welshman on the throne of England"......ie, was Monmouth counted part of Wales in August 1386 ?

Shakespeare had him down as Welsh I notice :::

"I wear it ( a leek ) with pride, for I am Welsh you know, good countryman.

[Zacs-Master]

Interesting question Mikey. I can't find anything that confirms when Monmouth was 'christened'. This website says Monmouthshire (and therefor presumably Monmouth has never been English):
http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/wales/mon.htm

[Buenchico]

>>> I have seen it written, that Henry VII was the only Welshman to sit on the English throne, as he was in Pembroke Castle

On the BBC website this morning?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-40190701

Monmouth was under the control of the House of Lancaster when Henry V was born:
http://www.monmouth.org.uk/index.php/local/history/wales-or-england.html

With regard to your Shakespearean reference, this might be of interest:
http://www.agincourt600.com/2015/10/03/for-i-am-welsh-you-know-welshmen-myth-and-reality-at-agincourt/

[Zacs-Master]

Chris, your link states that Monmouth was 'linked to the English crown'. It doesn't confirm it wasn't in Wales.

[Zacs-Master]

Apparently, his birthday is the subject of speculation:
'Some say his birthday was 9 August 1387, but an alternative date is 16 September 1386. '
http://www.historyextra.com/article/military-history/10-facts-henry-v-and-battle-agincourt

[Buenchico]

^^^ Nationality would have been determined by political control though, rather than by simple geography. For example, anyone born in Calais between 1347 and 1596 would have been English, even though it might be hard to argue that Calais was actually 'in England'.

[Old_Geezer]

Didn't Monmouthshire change sides and become Gwent in the early 70's ? I also recall something about there being different borders, some related to governmental authorities, and others for something else, making it all rather muddled depending on what one was actually referring to.

[Old_Geezer]

No historian but wasn't all in these Islands referred to as English at the time ? The name England being used to include the areas that thought of themselves as some place else.

[Zacs-Master]

Henry fought against England (or at least a powerful English Lord) when he was 16.

[mikey4444]

Thanks everybody !

A tricky question it would seem. I am not sure if Wales was recognised as a separate country in the 1300's, as it was a collection of shires at the time.

Yes Chris....it was the bit on the BBC Wales website that made me think of this today, and yes, you are right, the point about Calais is true.

But until I have it proved differently, I am claiming Henry V for Wales !

[Tilly2]

....and God for Harry!

[Zacs-Master]

I have fond memories of Monmouth, Ross on Wye, the wye valley from the mid/late 70s. Beautiful countryside. Second only to Yorkshire.

[mikey4444]

Yes, I agree Zacs. The drive up from Tintern to Monmouth is beautiful. There is a Pub, right on the river, about halfway, called The Boat Inn, at Penallt, which you access by walking over he old railway bridge. I have spent many an evening there over the years, but never, unfortunately, when the trains were still running !

https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g2630822-d2369752-Reviews-The_Boat_Inn-Penallt_Monmouthshire_South_Wales_Wales.html

[ABerrant]

Immediately following the Norman Conquest of England castles were built along the Anglo-Welsh border to fend of the 'barbarian' Celts. For several centuries this region of Marches - 'Welsh' land manned by English soldiers - was ruled by Marcher Lords who had nearly all of the rights that belonged to the King in other parts of the Kingdom.

Although technically in the control of England from 1067, it was not until Henry VIII's Acts Of Union, in the 16th century, that the Marches were declared separate counties and part of England.

The Laws in Wales Act 1535 treated the new county of Monmouthshire in a different manner to the other four creations; Brecknockshire, Radnorshire, Montgomeryshire and Denbighshire were each required to elect one Knight to Parliament in common with all other Shires "within the said Country of Dominion of Wales" whereas Monmouthshire required two Knights, as required by "all other Shires of this Realm of England".

Also the Laws in Wales Act 1542 specifically enumerates the Welsh counties as twelve in number, excluding Monmouthshire from the count.

To all intents and purposes, Monmouthshire only became Welsh when it came under the remit of The Welsh Office upon its creation in 1964.

[mikey4444]

ABerrant

Thanks......it looks as if Monmouth was never Welsh, as Wales had yet to identified exactly enough, in 1386.

But I still prefer Shakespeare's version, as its far more romantic !

[Jackdaw33]

Even earlier than Henry V was the first Prince of Wales, later Edward II, born in Caernafon castle in 1284.