Flying the flag

[Claud]

Recently on the news they said that flying the union jack in Lambeth is banned by the Council, And A pub in West London was told to take down the St Georges flag on St Georges Day.My Question is ........is it against the law(or racist)to be patriotic?

[good2skull]

Patriotism is something that for some reason the British seem to have become embarrased about, I am not sure why. I live abroad, in Sweden and when I talk to friends here about this very subject they respond with real surprise that incidents like this happen in the UK. They do not understand why it is perceived by some as being wrong or insensitive to fly your nation's flag or celebrate your national identity. The Swedes feel very strongly about their national identity and celebrating their country, traditions and culture and, for the most part, they do it in a very positive way, all races, religions etc. are welcome to embrace the country's festivals and traditions. I think we Brits have somewhere along the line confused patriotism with some of the less savoury aspects of nationalism and we could do with redefining the term and start being proud of our positive qualities and identities as Brits, regardless of our skin colour, religion, sexuality or anything else. And we should stop letting people tell us that its wrong to be proud of our country and our traditions.

[WaldoMcFroog]

Certainly it's not against the law to be patriotic, but the English flag has been hijacked by the far right, and thus many people feel nervous to be closely associated with it. I believe a lot of this is as a result of being a post Imperial nation: many of us (myself included) feel that there is much in that history to be ashamed of (close links with slavery, decimation of foriegn cultures in the rush to exploit resources. etc. So, it's not illegal, but a council such as Lambeth, being home to a large number of minority ethnic groups might feel that such a sign could be interpreted as racist, regardless of actual intention. It's a well known ploy by racists to fly flags in areas where it could sensibly be deemed to be racially insensitive to do so and then claim they're being discriminated against when asked to take it down. Whether that is the case here, I have no idea.

[5029]

Same in Northern Ireland. SOme residents refuse to recognise it as part of UK and you can get in serious trouble for displaying the flag of our country in certain areas!!

[Waterwolf]

I think another part of the problem is that 'Englishness' is quite a nebulous concept. I mean: what makes someone English? To be born in England? To live in England? To speak English? To speak English with a certain accent? To be white? I could go on. The point is, if you asked ten people to define 'Englishness', you'd probably get ten different answers -- so it's no wonder there are misunderstandings.

[good2skull]

Re: Englishness Of course to be English/British means being born here or at least carrying the passport and to speak English although accent is irrelevant as is ethnic origin, religion, sexual preference etc. as I have already stated. But what do you want ? Is someone from Italy or Australia living and working in England English ? No they are not. Just as myself, born in Lancashire but living in Sweden, a speaker of the language and one who has become immersed in this country's culture will never be Swedish. We are pretty much the only country in Europe who are afraid of displaying pride in our country and heritage and maintaining our traditions for fear of offending people who have moved here from other lands. Traditions are the glue that bind a country together, the days in the year when everyone is doing something similar. They allow one to relate to the fellow man and create a "togetherness" (the Swedish is gemenskap and I can't think of a direct translation). If today, old traditions do not apply for religious reasons or whatever then its time to adapt, perhaps have something that can include all but at the same time be something unmistakably British. Ulster is a different situation though and a discussion I do not wish to become involved with but it is true to say that the British flag has been hi-jacked by unpleasant types so why not hi-jack it back ? All we have done is lie down let the emblem of our country become tarnished.

[karenflood]

For me this just typifies what the Union Jack is all about - England's Flag and they can keep it! Many Scots were massacred under that flag throughout the years - I like to refer to it as "The Butcher's Apron". I am a Nationalist and would like to see Scotland as an independent country and perhaps we could have some pride in our own flag and customs instead about hearing about the English 24 hours a day who, to be honest, don't even have a national dress or many customs either.

[good2skull]

Quite right too, pride in being Scottish, thats what I'm talking about, but again as I have already said, be patriotic but positively so, xenophobia has no place in the world. Correct that under the Union Flag, many Scots were massacred, but should we be less proud of ourselves for who we are because of the sins of our fathers ? Perhaps. Would you suggest then that the children of Berlin be ashamed of the German flag because of events during the second world war ? Anyway we are not talking about the Union Flag but the flag of Saint George so the point about the "butchers apron" right or wrong, in this case is invalid. I agree that the English have lost their traditions, and this is part of my point, we have lost them through being made to feel guilty for having traditions as some sectors of society perceive this as a method of exluding minorities. The English could use something like Burn's night to bind the country together a little.

[Johnsduke]

I live in the area where the aforementioned pub was told to take down those George Cross flags. In a letter written by me to our local Gazette newspaper, I wrote the following: "A Southall publican is visited and ordered by the police on St. George`s day to remove his flags from the front of his pub after complaints from a section of the community. Apparently, they found the flags to be `intimidating`. St. George`s day is one day of the year where English folk can be patriotic and maybe wave a flag or two - as well as having a pint for good measure. Look at the Irish (St. Patrick`s Day), the Scots (St. Andrew`s Day), the Welsh (St. David`s Day), the Sikhs, the Hindus, the Moslems etc, etc. All sections of our community have their own reasons to celebrate their various special days - and why not? It`s what democracy and freedom are all about. BUT, it seems, the English (in some eyes) aren`t allowed to. It`s offensive, apparently. WHY??? Once again, it is the small minority of foreign racists (yes, I do believe that`s what they are) who are eroding the rights of other decent citizens of this country. A country in which my father fought alongside many other nationalities, in order to help free the world of evil, and to ensure that we can ALL enjoy the freedom not found in some other countries of the world. Perhaps those who complained about the flags in the first place would like to explain why they found them so offensive. After all, flags cannot do you any harm can they?" Well folks, needless to say, my letter wasn`t printed. What a surprise... And lastly, just to comment on the email by karenflood: I see many Scottish folk who live and work quite happily here in England whom display the Scottish flags on their cars etc. And quite rightly so. There should NEVER be any shame in where you come from. I`m not, and I`ll be displaying a George Cross flag on the rear of my car as from now on. And I make no apologies for that.

[Nevinyrral]

If the British are going to reclaim their flag from the nationalists then might I suggest that they start be learning what it is called. I would wager that unless you spend a lot of time at sea, most of you have never even seen a Union Jack and are instead meaning to refer to the Union Flag. The St George's Flag is also correctly called the Flag of St George or more colloquially as the St George's Cross. St George didn't have a flag.

[samyax]

karenflood: Are you not referring to the St George cross? The union (jack) flag the word Jack came from the name of the James VI, King of Scots who inherited the English crown, causing the flag to be designed, that is Jac from Jacobus, Latin for James.