ChatterBank1 min ago
Votes For 16: Wales Voting Reforms See Voting Age Lowered
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Good ! If people are being taxed, then they deserve the right to vote...why not ?
Good ! If people are being taxed, then they deserve the right to vote...why not ?
Answers
If it increases turnout by preventing apathy then it’s a good thing. We need to engage young people with politics.
08:44 Sun 28th Jan 2018
I’ve been watching this thread with interest on and off today.
The UK has, over the last few years or so, been steadily increasing the age at which children become adults. The most significant change is in education. Until 1972 the school leaving age (SLA) was 15. The Education and Skills Act of 2008 decreed that it would be raised to 17 in 2013 and 18 in 2015. Let’s be under no illusions that children can enter full time work at 16. They cannot. They may be lucky enough to gain a place on a training or apprenticeship scheme that pays them whilst they learn, but they are still learning. (I have my own view that the SLA was raised because schools cannot now educate children to a decent enough standard by the time they reach 16 and need a couple of years more to do the job. But that’s largely beside the point).
A number of interesting points have been made to justify lowering the voting age:
“Paying tax”. Few 16-18 year olds pay income tax. Some pay indirect taxes, but so do ten year olds from their pocket money. And in any case, if paying tax means you should have a vote then it could be argued that not paying tax means you should not. Clearly a weak argument.
“You can join the Army (and presumably fight and die for your country)”
Yes you can, but no you can’t. You can join the Army at 16 only with parental consent. Until 18 you will be a “Junior Soldier” and effectively be in full time training (to comply with the 2008 Act). You cannot be deployed on combat missions until that training is finished.
The Criminal Justice system classifies those under 18 as “children”. They are afforded additional rights when appearing in court (such as anonymity and having their hearings held in private) and are subject to lower sentences. If they are committed to custody they do not go to adult prisons until they are 21.
Under 18s cannot buy alcohol or tobacco. They cannot enter into contracts. There is a whole host of things they cannot do and these rules and laws are firmly established. But it seems the Welsh Assemby (and the Scottish Parliament) want young people to have their cake and eat it.
All rights should be accompanied by responsibilities. The right to vote carries the responsibility that it will be exercised with some consideration and care. Many other institutions (some of which I’ve mentioned) believe that, in general, the maturity needed to exercise such responsibilities is 18. Voting should be no exception. What really needs addressing is why the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Parliament have been given free rein to vary the voting age for their elections. But that’s another argument.
The UK has, over the last few years or so, been steadily increasing the age at which children become adults. The most significant change is in education. Until 1972 the school leaving age (SLA) was 15. The Education and Skills Act of 2008 decreed that it would be raised to 17 in 2013 and 18 in 2015. Let’s be under no illusions that children can enter full time work at 16. They cannot. They may be lucky enough to gain a place on a training or apprenticeship scheme that pays them whilst they learn, but they are still learning. (I have my own view that the SLA was raised because schools cannot now educate children to a decent enough standard by the time they reach 16 and need a couple of years more to do the job. But that’s largely beside the point).
A number of interesting points have been made to justify lowering the voting age:
“Paying tax”. Few 16-18 year olds pay income tax. Some pay indirect taxes, but so do ten year olds from their pocket money. And in any case, if paying tax means you should have a vote then it could be argued that not paying tax means you should not. Clearly a weak argument.
“You can join the Army (and presumably fight and die for your country)”
Yes you can, but no you can’t. You can join the Army at 16 only with parental consent. Until 18 you will be a “Junior Soldier” and effectively be in full time training (to comply with the 2008 Act). You cannot be deployed on combat missions until that training is finished.
The Criminal Justice system classifies those under 18 as “children”. They are afforded additional rights when appearing in court (such as anonymity and having their hearings held in private) and are subject to lower sentences. If they are committed to custody they do not go to adult prisons until they are 21.
Under 18s cannot buy alcohol or tobacco. They cannot enter into contracts. There is a whole host of things they cannot do and these rules and laws are firmly established. But it seems the Welsh Assemby (and the Scottish Parliament) want young people to have their cake and eat it.
All rights should be accompanied by responsibilities. The right to vote carries the responsibility that it will be exercised with some consideration and care. Many other institutions (some of which I’ve mentioned) believe that, in general, the maturity needed to exercise such responsibilities is 18. Voting should be no exception. What really needs addressing is why the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Parliament have been given free rein to vary the voting age for their elections. But that’s another argument.
Thanks NJ....always nice to read your comments, even when I agree with some and disagree with others !
But I will have a go at answering your last question ::::
"What really needs addressing is why the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Parliament have been given free rein to vary the voting age for their elections. But that’s another argument"
Both Wales and Scotland have their own Parliaments, that are not Tory-controlled, so they are both able to make decisions without the say-so of Tory Governor Generals, crossing the Severn and Hadrian's Wall.
That was the point of having devolution, so that we can do things differently, if we so decide.
But I will have a go at answering your last question ::::
"What really needs addressing is why the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Parliament have been given free rein to vary the voting age for their elections. But that’s another argument"
Both Wales and Scotland have their own Parliaments, that are not Tory-controlled, so they are both able to make decisions without the say-so of Tory Governor Generals, crossing the Severn and Hadrian's Wall.
That was the point of having devolution, so that we can do things differently, if we so decide.
Has anyone ever done an in depth study on how the economies of England, Scotland and Wales and NI would fare if all were independent nations?
Take away subsidies that are swinging from one part of the country to another and 'live' on their own taxes and resources. Pay for your own Parliament, health care, education , defences etc etc etc.
That would be jolly interesting and probably a great debate.
Take away subsidies that are swinging from one part of the country to another and 'live' on their own taxes and resources. Pay for your own Parliament, health care, education , defences etc etc etc.
That would be jolly interesting and probably a great debate.
Cassa....I can't speak for Scotland.
For far too long, a Tory Governor General travelled over the Bridge, with his plumed hat on the seat beside him in the ministerial Rover. We have never voted popularly for the Tories, but have still had to put up with policies that were not in our interest.
I am not a fan of, or calling for independence and neither are most other Welsh residents....we just some control and say in our own affairs.
For far too long, a Tory Governor General travelled over the Bridge, with his plumed hat on the seat beside him in the ministerial Rover. We have never voted popularly for the Tories, but have still had to put up with policies that were not in our interest.
I am not a fan of, or calling for independence and neither are most other Welsh residents....we just some control and say in our own affairs.
It's like to increase apathy when adults realise the system's changed so their experienced opinion can be negated by kids' naive following of what's in fashion with their peers at school. Seriously, why bother any more ? The lunatics will have taken over the asylum and messed everything up. We need to engage experienced folk in politics rather than confirm the system isn't worth interacting with.
“Both Wales and Scotland have their own Parliaments, that are not Tory-controlled,…”
It doesn't matter who controls them (or who controls national government) Mikey.
I am fundamentally opposed to devolution but that's neither here nor there. But the voting age - whatever the election is for - should be a national (i.e. UK) issue. I see no justification for devolving the power to alter the voting age in a local election. There's no reason why the voting age should be different for the Welsh Assembly elections to that for UK Parliamentary elections or English local elections. It should not be among the things that devolved assemblies can do differently.
“We have never voted popularly for the Tories, but have still had to put up with policies that were not in our interest.”
The part of the country I live in has never voted popularly for Labour. My particular constituency has not returned a Labour MP since the war. It did not exist as a separate constituency before 1945 but the adjoining constituencies from which it was formed did not return a Labour MP for as far back as I can be bothered to look. But we, nonetheless have had to put up with Labour’s policies for quite a few years - many of them very clearly not in our interests. But as far as I can see my area has not been clamouring for its own assembly so that it can control its own affairs.
I might be more receptive to devolution if England had been afforded its own assembly at the same time as the three devolved assemblies were set up for the three minor constituent parts of the UK. It is somewhat galling to see Scottish, Welsh and NI MPs voting at Westminster on matters which only affect England when the control of those matters outside England have been devolved. I appreciate this is not the fault of the Scots, Welsh or N Irish but I still believe devolution to be a mistaken policy which can only promote division and rancour across the UK. Vast sums of money are shovelled across the Scottish and Welsh borders and the Irish Sea to be controlled by the devolved assemblies. The very least the English deserve is an assembly of their own so that it can control similar affairs of their own without interference from the Westminster government. But I would still not advocate that assembly having the power to alter the voting age!
It doesn't matter who controls them (or who controls national government) Mikey.
I am fundamentally opposed to devolution but that's neither here nor there. But the voting age - whatever the election is for - should be a national (i.e. UK) issue. I see no justification for devolving the power to alter the voting age in a local election. There's no reason why the voting age should be different for the Welsh Assembly elections to that for UK Parliamentary elections or English local elections. It should not be among the things that devolved assemblies can do differently.
“We have never voted popularly for the Tories, but have still had to put up with policies that were not in our interest.”
The part of the country I live in has never voted popularly for Labour. My particular constituency has not returned a Labour MP since the war. It did not exist as a separate constituency before 1945 but the adjoining constituencies from which it was formed did not return a Labour MP for as far back as I can be bothered to look. But we, nonetheless have had to put up with Labour’s policies for quite a few years - many of them very clearly not in our interests. But as far as I can see my area has not been clamouring for its own assembly so that it can control its own affairs.
I might be more receptive to devolution if England had been afforded its own assembly at the same time as the three devolved assemblies were set up for the three minor constituent parts of the UK. It is somewhat galling to see Scottish, Welsh and NI MPs voting at Westminster on matters which only affect England when the control of those matters outside England have been devolved. I appreciate this is not the fault of the Scots, Welsh or N Irish but I still believe devolution to be a mistaken policy which can only promote division and rancour across the UK. Vast sums of money are shovelled across the Scottish and Welsh borders and the Irish Sea to be controlled by the devolved assemblies. The very least the English deserve is an assembly of their own so that it can control similar affairs of their own without interference from the Westminster government. But I would still not advocate that assembly having the power to alter the voting age!
Mikey my question doesn't give a fig about who you haven't voted for or your rather sad and winney bleat about a plume hatted official. That just comes across as 'poor me oh how I can't get what I want.
In was purely a question on how each constituent part of the UK would fare without being either dragged down or bolstered up by the other parts. Nothing whatsoever to do with party politics.
In was purely a question on how each constituent part of the UK would fare without being either dragged down or bolstered up by the other parts. Nothing whatsoever to do with party politics.
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