ChatterBank1 min ago
Planning And Licensing Law For Pub Gardens
12 Answers
The pub next door to use has an existing beer garden on the road side. It is marked on the plan as "area made available for consumption outside the premises".
Behind the pub is the rear gardens for all the houses on the block. It used to be for several years an empty storage space for tables and chairs so was quiet like all the neighbours. However, they have now installed tables, chairs, heaters and a children's playground and have opened it as another beer garden. The area looks into several bedroom windows and gardens and there is the noise of children screaming from 3pm and then loud drinkers until 10:30pm. The new beer garden is about 110 sqm.
The pub are saying they don't need planning or a variation of their licence to just go ahead and open this and the council don't seem sure either. Their argument is that "Allowing off sales would not require any change to the Premises Licence as it already allows off sales" and quote the guidance that says "8.37 If the beer garden or other outdoor area is to be used for the consumption of off-sales only, there is no requirement to show it on the plan of the premises"
Is this correct?
1. Planning
I would have thought this is change of use which means planning permission should be sought. But is it was an empty storage/scrap yard before but still part of the pub land (although not the licensed part or the part on the plan "for consumption outside the premises" does this still require planning permission? I can't find anything in legislation other than the change in fire egress. The building work they have done is mount heaters on walls, knock down a wall and build a new access way adjoining the next-door property. According to Circular 03/2005, the first thing to consider in determining whether a material change of use has occurred, or will occur, is the existing primary use of the land
2. Licence
Would a variation to the license be required? I note that as of January, the Premises licence guidance part 2.4 says "You are asked to describe the premises. For example the type of premises it is, its general situation and layout and any other information that would be relevant to the licensing objectives. You should also describe any areas that you intend to provide for people to consume alcohol that you sell or supply such as outside areas eg beer gardens."
Furthermore, do the effects on the licensing objectives mean a variation should be sought before operating this area?
Behind the pub is the rear gardens for all the houses on the block. It used to be for several years an empty storage space for tables and chairs so was quiet like all the neighbours. However, they have now installed tables, chairs, heaters and a children's playground and have opened it as another beer garden. The area looks into several bedroom windows and gardens and there is the noise of children screaming from 3pm and then loud drinkers until 10:30pm. The new beer garden is about 110 sqm.
The pub are saying they don't need planning or a variation of their licence to just go ahead and open this and the council don't seem sure either. Their argument is that "Allowing off sales would not require any change to the Premises Licence as it already allows off sales" and quote the guidance that says "8.37 If the beer garden or other outdoor area is to be used for the consumption of off-sales only, there is no requirement to show it on the plan of the premises"
Is this correct?
1. Planning
I would have thought this is change of use which means planning permission should be sought. But is it was an empty storage/scrap yard before but still part of the pub land (although not the licensed part or the part on the plan "for consumption outside the premises" does this still require planning permission? I can't find anything in legislation other than the change in fire egress. The building work they have done is mount heaters on walls, knock down a wall and build a new access way adjoining the next-door property. According to Circular 03/2005, the first thing to consider in determining whether a material change of use has occurred, or will occur, is the existing primary use of the land
2. Licence
Would a variation to the license be required? I note that as of January, the Premises licence guidance part 2.4 says "You are asked to describe the premises. For example the type of premises it is, its general situation and layout and any other information that would be relevant to the licensing objectives. You should also describe any areas that you intend to provide for people to consume alcohol that you sell or supply such as outside areas eg beer gardens."
Furthermore, do the effects on the licensing objectives mean a variation should be sought before operating this area?
Answers
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I do not think a change to the licence is needed or possible. If you have any questions go to the 'Licencing department ' of your local council and ask them to explain / clariry the position ! They will be very helpful and explain exactly and clearly what can or cannot do done ! . You cann also contact them by phone or letter !
Rather than delving into the current or potential future licence agreement, I suggest you take a different and slightly easier approach.
Make a complaint to the local authority licensing dept about the noise from the beer garden and request a review of the Premises Licence. Whether or not the garden is covered under the licence, the pub is responsible for ... and use this phrase .... preventing public nuisance.
List the dates, times and type of nuisance and if possible, get a few neighbours to write too. The result should be a review hearing and either a limit on the use of the outdoor space, or a reduction in the hours it can be used. Good luck.
Make a complaint to the local authority licensing dept about the noise from the beer garden and request a review of the Premises Licence. Whether or not the garden is covered under the licence, the pub is responsible for ... and use this phrase .... preventing public nuisance.
List the dates, times and type of nuisance and if possible, get a few neighbours to write too. The result should be a review hearing and either a limit on the use of the outdoor space, or a reduction in the hours it can be used. Good luck.
Section 2 in this document is you guide.
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Planning - definitely not required unless they've built a semi enclosed structure (pergola type thing, possibly with a roof). The whole site will be designated A3 or A4 use.
Licensing - The plans submitted for licensing should have external areas marked with 'External customer area' (although this is a fairly recent thing). There are specialist Licensing solicitors (Kuits / Popplestone Allan / Eversheds to name but 3) who may be able to help (possibly free / possibly for a fee). Unlike planning drawings, there is no public access to Licensing plans.
Licensing - The plans submitted for licensing should have external areas marked with 'External customer area' (although this is a fairly recent thing). There are specialist Licensing solicitors (Kuits / Popplestone Allan / Eversheds to name but 3) who may be able to help (possibly free / possibly for a fee). Unlike planning drawings, there is no public access to Licensing plans.
Very similar questions have been asked on here before (maybe one by you?), so you may want to look through these too.
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EDDIE51 - have gone through the council. They unfortunately are clueless. Have been unable to do anything for five months now. And I don't see how you can say a change to the licence is not needed when under the Licensing Act 2003, the 2018 section 182 Guidance and the Home Office guidance, "A minor variation is defined as one that could not impact adversely on any of the four licensing objectives". This does impact on public nuisance so not only is a minor variation application required, a major variation seems appropriate. I'm looking for knowledge from others that councils are following this guidance.
Maydup - many neighbours have lodged complaints and are keeping noise/light nuisance diaries for EPT. I am aware that nuisance is one of the four objectivives the authority is obliged to uphold. The problem is that a reduction in hours isn't really much use - even if they are allowed a new beer garden, this simply was not an appropriate place to build a busy playground in the first place no matter how little it is used. The other beer garden on the noisy side of the pub that is walled in with brick and trees would have made a lot more sense!
Thanks for the link saying "At any stage following the grant of a premises licence (or club premises licence), a responsible authority or any other person can ask the licensing authority to review the licence because of a matter arising at the premises in connection with any of the four licensing objectives."
The council has so far denied this!
EDDIE51 - "But ANY part of a licenced building (Pub / Bar) including the garden can be used to serve alcohol". As stated in my question, this is NOT within the licensed boundary. The existing beer garden is also "for consumption outside the premises".
Zacs-Master My point is the whole site was not previously designated A3 or A4 (it had been otherwise for several years) so is this not a change of use?!
fiction-factory - I have read those other answers but unfortunately there is a lot of contradictory information.
Maydup - many neighbours have lodged complaints and are keeping noise/light nuisance diaries for EPT. I am aware that nuisance is one of the four objectivives the authority is obliged to uphold. The problem is that a reduction in hours isn't really much use - even if they are allowed a new beer garden, this simply was not an appropriate place to build a busy playground in the first place no matter how little it is used. The other beer garden on the noisy side of the pub that is walled in with brick and trees would have made a lot more sense!
Thanks for the link saying "At any stage following the grant of a premises licence (or club premises licence), a responsible authority or any other person can ask the licensing authority to review the licence because of a matter arising at the premises in connection with any of the four licensing objectives."
The council has so far denied this!
EDDIE51 - "But ANY part of a licenced building (Pub / Bar) including the garden can be used to serve alcohol". As stated in my question, this is NOT within the licensed boundary. The existing beer garden is also "for consumption outside the premises".
Zacs-Master My point is the whole site was not previously designated A3 or A4 (it had been otherwise for several years) so is this not a change of use?!
fiction-factory - I have read those other answers but unfortunately there is a lot of contradictory information.
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