Of Course It's All Our Fault....right Oh Junkett!

[ToraToraTora]

https://news.sky.com/story/no-deal-brexit-will-be-britains-fault-says-eu-chief-jean-claude-juncker-11820520
The EUSSR have refused point blank to negotiate beyond the unacceptable brino deal with a back stop but it's all our fault!

[New Judge]

//So if one is going to pay the blame game, which is a pity actually,...//

I don't blame the EU. Their club, their rules and we were seeking "associate membership" which is where it all fell apart. The EU does not do separate levels of membership. You're either in or you're out. We voted to be out.

[ludwig]

// He didn't chicken out. He was knifed in the back by that nice Mr Gove //

Nah, he chickened out. He recently ran against that nice Mr Gove and beat him convincingly. He never needed his support.

[Old_Geezer]

If Parliament had agreed May’s plan, we would not have Brexitted from the EU at all as it wasn't an exit plan. It was a trap-us-in-the-EU-permanently plan.

[youngmafbog]

Don't care whose fault it is (although I dont think it is anyones) I just want out.

[Zacs-Master]

'The EU does not do separate levels of membership'. Completely incorrect:
Protocol 25 of the Maastricht treaty cleared the UK and Denmark from the chapters related to the Economic and Monetary Union, exempting them from using the euro currency.

Britain is not a member of the Schengen area. Unlike when traveling across the rest of the EU, passports must still be checked when crossing the UK border.

The UK obtained a “clarifying protocol” which states the Charter of Fundamental Human Rights “does not extend” the ability of the European Court of Justice to find UK law inconsistent with the Charter.

Protocol 36 of the Lisbon Treaty grants the UK has the right to opt-in/out of individual pieces of legislation coming under a Title V legal base.

[ichkeria]

Even if one accepts that argument there is nothing stopping the UK from leaving the EU without a deal but ... the UK.
As I say, all the means to execute Brexit it to stop it, test this side of the Channel. The EU feel, not unreasonably, that they’ve done all they can. They are looking at Britain and think there is no sort of deal which will work as it would not take much for a handful of MPs to vote it down.

[ichkeria]

That last to OG

[Old_Geezer]

Only this side if our parliament opts to represent the peoples choice. When it denies democracy and arranges for a forced extension request then it lies the other side of the channel.

Anyway, that's the no-deal default. Agreeing a deal was definitely in the hands of those across the channel, and was most people's preferred option, but all we ever got was the demand list. If that's their idea of "all we can" then they're not up to negotiating reasonably and have been wasting everyone's time. They are the stumbling block, refusing all reasonable suggestions claiming they won't work; morally the onus to suggest some sensible alternative that matches our very reasonable red lines, is with them.

[Jackdaw33]

In 2016 Gove threatened to dish the dirt on Boris; he knew where the skeletons were. May rightly sacked him and I do not understand why Boris brought him back,the slimy toad.

[Zacs-Master]

OG, A50 states 'For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it'

There's no need for them to negotiate anything and therefore nothing about them having to be what we perceive to be 'reasonable'.

[Blubster]

"The EU agreed to a deal with May."

The EU told Treason May what she could have and she would have blindly accepted any scraps thrown in our direction. She would have given away control of our armed forces, our financial sectors and left us still under EU control via the NI backstop. Brino with no say in how the EU is run and we would have had to accept any rules dished out without question.

[New Judge]

I would not describe the exemptions you mention as an alternative level of membership, Zacs. They are "grandfather rights" which were secured by existing members when new proposals were made. And they were secured when the governance of the EU was somewhat different to how it is now. It is unlikely that any such opt-outs will ever be granted again. I would not say that Ireland, Denmark or the UK enjoy (or suffer) a different level of membership to the other EU members. They simply secured absolution from arguably the two gravest errors of policy that the EU has ever made.

What the UK is seeking now is non-membership but with members' rights and privileges. I know you will mention EFTA and Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, and Switzerland. In my view those four nations are foolish and might as well either leave EFTA and/or join the EU lock, stock and barrel. But even that is not what the UK is seeking. It wants privileges available to EU members when it leaves and that isn't going to happen.

[Zacs-Master]

'I would not describe the exemptions you mention as an alternative level of membership, Zacs.'

I didn't expect you to. I do and i believe it undermines your statement that the EU don't do separate levels of membership.

[Old_Geezer]

Of course there is a need for negotiation if they want a decent deal, which any responsible nation or trading block should. What they cook up before coming to the table is up to them. Quoting that "For the purposes of paragraphs.." stuff time and again, changes nothing.

[Zacs-Master]

It does indeed change nothing. A50 is the benchmark which the EU are sticking to, as is their right.

[Old_Geezer]

And they can stick to it. But they need to negotiate on top or the world will see them as the intransigence bullies they are proving to be. Hopefully their member states realise that also, behind their public face.

[Zacs-Master]

One countries 'intransigence bullies' is another's 'firm negotiators'.

[fender62]

the eu are not going to give us a deal, that undermines there status quo, there deck is rigged for all players except for germany and france.

[Old_Geezer]

To negotiate you have to move from your starting position. And agreeing to May's daft attempt to pretend she'd got something when it made things worse, doesn't count, because it was just an attempt to pull the wool over the eyes of parliament.

[Theland]

I voted to leave the EU, single market, customs union, ECJ, and everything their grubby hands are into.
Now told arrogantly that we didn't know what we were voting for.
Beyond cheeky. Insulting.
All power to your elbow Boris.
A curse on all your EU houses Junkie.