Woe Betide

[Hopkirk]

I know what this phrase is used for, but what is its origin?

[Mamyalynne]

Some musings here.

https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/woe-betide-you.html

[Peter Pedant]

some phrases get stuck in aspic and dont mutate
( and of course some do and there is a whole study on this - which does and how fast)

like woe betide - - and also methinks
( which they said was an impersonal verb ( like it rains) with an attributive accusative (me) whacked on the front ( antepositive) and I have to say I eacted with what a load of old crap )

From Early Modern English woe (“great sadness or distress; calamity, trouble”) + betide (“to happen to, befall”), formerly used to decry a person's actions. Grammatically, it is a term the verb of which is in the subjunctive mood.

woe is related 'cognate' with vae ( Latin for er woe) as in Vae Victis - woe to the wanquished.
I thought they would say betide was some damned stupid thing

[Hopkirk]

Thanks Mamy.

I was expecting some religious link, like oh gaw blimey.
(Oh God blind me)

[Hopkirk]

and thanks Peter

[Peter Pedant]

well dat funny dat
because I was gonna mention that in the New Testament
mee genoito - let it not happen occurred as a phrase
and that was found in the earliest gk tragedies from 450BC

using a rather rare optative ....

[Mamyalynne]

You're welcome Hopkirk, some fascinating phrases and often we don't question them do we?

[allenlondon]

There's all sorts we use all the time without real relevance - how many bulls do most people encounter, and for that matter how many china shops?

[Mamyalynne]

Not many Allen I agree - of course that phrase could have mentioned any large creature in a place of fragile items but that was the one that caught the attention.

The precise origin for this term has been lost; it was first recorded in Frederick Marryat's novel, Jacob Faithful (1834).

[jno]

"betide" means "happen to" (glad tidings = glad happenings; time and tide = time and events). So it means "may woe happen to..."

[Hopkirk]

I now have the full picture.

Thanks all.

I was half expecting it to go back to a Shakespeare play.

[rockyracoon]

Was you listening to Absolute Radio by any chance. The morning show had pretty much the same conversation.

[Hopkirk]

Absolutely, I was.