Serena Williams Could Beat The Men........right Oh!

[ToraToraTora]

[andy-hughes]

Clare - Yet again you are talking up basic rights, which no-one should want to deny, and ignoring the trumpeting for indulgence that is the root cause of intolerance.

You brush aside my example, but ignore the fact that it is this level of nonsense that entirely creates the hostility towards trans people.

If everyone shut up and got on with it, there would be no problem.

But too many trans people use their difference to demand unworkable changes to the way most people live - toilets and changing rooms are two contentious examples.

If they lost their planet-sized need to tell everyone how 'different' they are, things would settle down very quickly.

No chance, sadly, attention seeking is endemic.

[naomi24]

Untitled, try working on your comprehension.

[ToraToraTora]

10:43, once again, bang on.

[ToraToraTora]

untitled: "this is why this topic is so difficult to discuss properly... there is a thinly veiled subtext of unrelenting hostility and intolerance toward even the very idea of being trans and a conviction that their nature must be denied " - explained very well by AH at 10:43. If they shut up and got on with it we'd all be fine but they use their "difference" as a weapon to try and make us all change the world to suit them, that's why people get hacked off with it.

[ClareTG0ld]

// Clare - Yet again you are talking up basic rights, which no-one should want to deny, and ignoring the trumpeting for indulgence that is the root cause of intolerance. //

I'm not ignoring it, I'm saying that its scale is being greatly exaggerated and often used as an excuse to deny the former.

Take toilets as an example. In the example you gave, apparently it was decided that the child shouldn't use toilets matching their birth gender, but neither would the school be comfortable in allowing them into toilets matching their social gender. However, they still need to go to the toilet *somewhere*, no? So the disabled toilet is the only remaining option. I'm not entirely clear why it was decided that a teacher has to accompany them at all times, but perhaps there's more to this story that explains this extra measure being judged as necessary.

Extending this to adults, most facilities provide either individual self-contained toilets and bathrooms, where only one person is around anyhow in which case there's no issue, or provide men's, women's, and disabled loos separately. But it's the same situation: a trans person has to go *somewhere*, and naturally prefer in the first instance to go to the toilet matching their identity. Failing that, they'd go to the toilets that are most likely to avoid leading to any uncomfortable or awkward situations. But this is what "shut[ting] up and get[ting] on with it" entails: going to to place you're least likely to be noticed. If a trans woman walks into the gents' then they'd stick out like a sore thumb and draw exactly the kind of attention neither you nor they would wish. But such a person walking into the ladies' isn't "demanding" anything other than to pee in peace.

At some point, then, it's hard not to wonder if your definition of basic rights extends only as far as trans people remain entirely invisible, exercising their rights in silence and in private. Now, perhaps this is unfair. But selecting the "battlegrounds" of toilets and changing rooms seem to amount to precisely this: it means that trans people, whenever in public, must act in a way that is simultaneously not attention-seeking but also is incongruous with their mode of presentation (which just ends up drawing attention).

[andy-hughes]

You talk about a 'mode of presentation' as though it's a fact of life.

It's not, it's a choice, and if you choose to draw attention to yourself in this way, you must accept the consequences.

I don't want to be laughed at by strangers, so I don't go out dressed as a clown.

[Untitled]

do you think that being trans is just like playing dress-up andy hughes? something a person just does because they fancy it.

[ClareTG0ld]

// I don't want to be laughed at by strangers, so I don't go out dressed as a clown. //

I don't either. At this point I'm struggling to understand how you can possibly think you're anything other than transphobic if this is what you think of us.

[ClareTG0ld]

Also, I thought you agreed with me that freedom from discrimination was a basic right? I don't necessarily mind (or, at least, can't control) what thoughts people have about me *in private*. But as soon as they openly mock me, that's harassment and discrimination.

[andy-hughes]

Clare - Your last statement neatly encapsulates the reason why attention-seeking egotistical trans people get the hostility they grind on about all day long.

My reference to wearing a clown outfit was an illustration of how an attention-seeking 'display' will create a response, because that's human nature.

Of course, you want to make that a personal insult, because that allows you to feel persecuted, and play the victim card.

It was not aimed at you, so stop looking for offence where none exists, you are simply undermining your own position.

[ClareTG0ld]

Also also, what "consequences" must I accept, and what consequences are too far even for you?

There are seriously dark overtones to any statement to the effect of arguing that if a person dresses in a certain way then whatever happens to them after that is their own fault.

[ClareTG0ld]

That's a nice attempt at evasion andy but there are two failings: firstly the entire problem with discussing this or any other issue in the abstract is that eventually you'll run into commenting about real people. Secondly, even if not meant about me personally, then evidently that's your attitude about *some* trans people. Which ones? The defence "oh I don't mean [members of a minority group] like *you*" has neve been particularly effective or persuasive, or even particularly honest.

[ClareTG0ld]

And in this specific example it still runs into the problems of (a) what even counts as an "attention-seeking display", and (b) why attention-seeking in itself deserves, or at least justifies, the vague term of "consequences", which covers all manner of sin.

[andy-hughes]

Clare - You are obviously keen to be a victim, and make me transphobic.

This exchange is not going anywhere, so I will withdraw, with the caveat that, despite your efforts to make me appear so, I am not transphobic.

Good afternoon.

[Untitled]

you know it is possible to confront your prejudices about people honestly and then to come out of it a better person

i am unsure if i am reading your posts incorrectly but you seem to think that trans people invite ridicule by adopting a mode of presentation contrary to the sex of their birth... but it is very difficult to see how a person could be openly trans and not do that

the "shut up and get on with it" looks a bit like "could you just not transition please because it bothers everyone else"

[ClareTG0ld]

Thanks for your assurances. But firstly you're completely wrong about my "keenness" to be a victim, and secondly assurances aren't worth much in the face of everything else you're saying. What does it mean to say, in effect, that you're on my side on basic rights but everything else you say is framed in terms of a tiny minority, my (or the trans community's in general) apparent obligation to rein them in, how it's all attention-seeking, how it seems appropriate to draw analogies with clowns etc.

You haven't had a nice word to say about anybody trans, and to the extent that you claim to be supportive it's only as long as we/they "shut up". This isn't supportive, simple as.

[andy-hughes]

Untitled - I am not a big fan of being patronised, but should that change, you are top of my list for the job.

Don't call me ...

[Untitled]

not trying to patronise you. i have done it myself.