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Ok ok I know you're all Burqa'd out but...
http://uk.news.yahoo....ench-vei-3fd0ae9.html
Are the french now going to become targets for extremists angered by the new laws?
Are the french now going to become targets for extremists angered by the new laws?
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Kinda busy.
The information is out there, for the record it was off Peter Lavelle (host of cross talk).
There are women who are born here who wear the veil, what are they to do when a change in the law makes them outlaws?
You clearly do need a lesson in American history, American history and culture is profoundly white, anything that isn't white is viewed in greater or lesser degrees to be un-American.
Similarly our culture is profoundly white (albeit naturally) anything that isn't white is viewed to a greater or lesser degree as un-British, there are people who are born here who are either the children of imigrants or converts who choose to wear this garb, how do you free them by jailing them?
Have the police nothing better to do?
Have the neighbours?
The result of this legislation will be further ghetthoisation (not less) as in largely Muslim communities they will flout the law, with the acquiesence and tacit approval of the locals, this would not auger well for social cohesion or for the basic policing of such areas.
The information is out there, for the record it was off Peter Lavelle (host of cross talk).
There are women who are born here who wear the veil, what are they to do when a change in the law makes them outlaws?
You clearly do need a lesson in American history, American history and culture is profoundly white, anything that isn't white is viewed in greater or lesser degrees to be un-American.
Similarly our culture is profoundly white (albeit naturally) anything that isn't white is viewed to a greater or lesser degree as un-British, there are people who are born here who are either the children of imigrants or converts who choose to wear this garb, how do you free them by jailing them?
Have the police nothing better to do?
Have the neighbours?
The result of this legislation will be further ghetthoisation (not less) as in largely Muslim communities they will flout the law, with the acquiesence and tacit approval of the locals, this would not auger well for social cohesion or for the basic policing of such areas.
Everton, //There are women who are born here who wear the veil//
Ask yourself why? These women (or the men that control them) cannot even claim religion as an excuse, so what excuse are you offering? This is a garment that is not a requirement of their religion, and it's one that not only restricts their integration into the society in which they have chosen to live, but is a visible and a very deliberately self-imposed barrier between them and the rest of the community - black or white. Had you visited some of the major towns and cities in the Middle East some 20 years ago, you would know that the burqa/niqab was conspicuous by its absence. Go to a cosmopolitan city such as Cairo now and spot the difference. Why? What has happened in the past 20 years to produce this profound shift? We know it isn't religion, neither is it an inordinate sense of suddenly acquired modesty, so perhaps you should think a little more seriously about it before you continue to promote it.
I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt regarding your thinly disguised comments on the profoundly white culture of both the UK and the USA, but from past experience of your posts I'm understandably reluctant. However, I will say that remarks such as those serve only to confirm your appalling ignorance and your complete lack of understanding - and your continuing obsession with imprisonment isn't helping your argument either. The fact is you have NEVER spoken to any burqa/niqab wearing woman on this subject, you are blinded by your constant penchant for supporting religion and the religious regardless of the cost to others, and frankly you know as much about their reasons for living in a shroud as you profess to know about today's teenagers and the myriad of other subjects you jump into with both feet - sweet Fanny Adams!
Ask yourself why? These women (or the men that control them) cannot even claim religion as an excuse, so what excuse are you offering? This is a garment that is not a requirement of their religion, and it's one that not only restricts their integration into the society in which they have chosen to live, but is a visible and a very deliberately self-imposed barrier between them and the rest of the community - black or white. Had you visited some of the major towns and cities in the Middle East some 20 years ago, you would know that the burqa/niqab was conspicuous by its absence. Go to a cosmopolitan city such as Cairo now and spot the difference. Why? What has happened in the past 20 years to produce this profound shift? We know it isn't religion, neither is it an inordinate sense of suddenly acquired modesty, so perhaps you should think a little more seriously about it before you continue to promote it.
I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt regarding your thinly disguised comments on the profoundly white culture of both the UK and the USA, but from past experience of your posts I'm understandably reluctant. However, I will say that remarks such as those serve only to confirm your appalling ignorance and your complete lack of understanding - and your continuing obsession with imprisonment isn't helping your argument either. The fact is you have NEVER spoken to any burqa/niqab wearing woman on this subject, you are blinded by your constant penchant for supporting religion and the religious regardless of the cost to others, and frankly you know as much about their reasons for living in a shroud as you profess to know about today's teenagers and the myriad of other subjects you jump into with both feet - sweet Fanny Adams!
Ha ha ha, you tickle me sometimes.
aomi, get off your high horse and drink your milk, all your flowery rhetoric and big words impress only the gullible, anyone with an ounce of intellect can see that you refuse to address the outcome of such a ban, the implication of such a ban or an ability to create a dialogue with the wearers of such garments.
As for your remark on teenagers, I deal with more kids daily than most others I do so at all hours of the day and night and when their parent's aren't looking, I've been caught in the middle of knife fights, racist gang violence amongst other things too, I also have colleagues who've dealt with the same, I feel that qualifies me for an opinion, perhaps you know better?
Whereas I've read several of your anecdotes in the past and have a tendency to file them under 'A' for apocryphal.
aomi, get off your high horse and drink your milk, all your flowery rhetoric and big words impress only the gullible, anyone with an ounce of intellect can see that you refuse to address the outcome of such a ban, the implication of such a ban or an ability to create a dialogue with the wearers of such garments.
As for your remark on teenagers, I deal with more kids daily than most others I do so at all hours of the day and night and when their parent's aren't looking, I've been caught in the middle of knife fights, racist gang violence amongst other things too, I also have colleagues who've dealt with the same, I feel that qualifies me for an opinion, perhaps you know better?
Whereas I've read several of your anecdotes in the past and have a tendency to file them under 'A' for apocryphal.
the burkha's are used by cowardly men too. If acceptable for full coverage, how about this :
http://upload.wikimed...an-in-gainesville.jpg
http://upload.wikimed...an-in-gainesville.jpg
Everton, 'apocryphal', eh? Now there's a big word! You certainly haven't given the matter serious consideration, so I'm not surprised you can laugh at it. I've asked you why this appalling uniform has suddenly become de rigueur amongst Muslim women, but you've ignored that because it doesn't suit your agenda to think about it. Neither have you told me how you are going to guarantee that the rights of women who are forced into this hideous apparel are to be protected. Your main concern appears to be to ensure that Muslim women remain shrouded from the rest of the world whether they want to be or not - and that's simply because you are a typically thoughtless religious apologist, which in this case makes you a fine ally to radical Islam. However, such is your blindness that you are oblivious to the fact that the Muslims who champion this as a political symbol - and there are many of them - are laughing at men like you, because you are actually helping them to fulfil their goal of encouraging the preservation of the damaging divisions within our society.
As far as teenagers are concerned, yes, you can have an opinion, but your experiences don't qualify you to speak for all of them, and the same applies to your opinions on burqa-wearers - except in that case, since you've never discussed the subject with any of them, you have no experience whatsoever.
The outcome of such a ban would be that women would stop wearing it, when hopefully the minds, which presently remain entrenched in the dark ages, would eventually join the physical bodies that now reside in the 21st century western world.
Tamborine, I agree. The 'beauty' aspect is highly debateable!
As far as teenagers are concerned, yes, you can have an opinion, but your experiences don't qualify you to speak for all of them, and the same applies to your opinions on burqa-wearers - except in that case, since you've never discussed the subject with any of them, you have no experience whatsoever.
The outcome of such a ban would be that women would stop wearing it, when hopefully the minds, which presently remain entrenched in the dark ages, would eventually join the physical bodies that now reside in the 21st century western world.
Tamborine, I agree. The 'beauty' aspect is highly debateable!
"Neither have you told me how you are going to guarantee that the rights of women who are forced into this hideous apparel are to be protected", I answered this many months ago, I suggested that it may in part be due to the change in our own society and that it is a rejection of the new decadence within ourselves.
E.G, beauty pageants are now viewed as empowering for women and the Play Boy logo is a fashion statement worn by women (and some children) cheerfully, who'd have thought that 20 years ago?
"Neither have you told me how you are going to guarantee that the rights of women who are forced into this hideous apparel are to be protected" again I've answered this previously (and more than once) that these women are better served by outreach workers, remember?
I've never claimed all teenagers are bad, look at the last question in which I posted on the subject, I'll drag it up for you if you like.
"The outcome of such a ban would be that women would stop wearing it" you cannot be serious, surely?
If only life were that simple.
E.G, beauty pageants are now viewed as empowering for women and the Play Boy logo is a fashion statement worn by women (and some children) cheerfully, who'd have thought that 20 years ago?
"Neither have you told me how you are going to guarantee that the rights of women who are forced into this hideous apparel are to be protected" again I've answered this previously (and more than once) that these women are better served by outreach workers, remember?
I've never claimed all teenagers are bad, look at the last question in which I posted on the subject, I'll drag it up for you if you like.
"The outcome of such a ban would be that women would stop wearing it" you cannot be serious, surely?
If only life were that simple.
Everton, What on earth are you talking about? What has this supposed 'new decadence within ourselves' got to do with protecting the rights of those who cannot protect themselves?
And yes .... bullying, controlling, husbands and fathers are really going to welcome outreach workers coming along to tell their women their rights within a western society!! Of course they are! What a ridiculous suggestion!! God!! These men won't let a male dentist or doctor treat their women even if they're in pain!! Get real Everton for goodness sake!!
No need to drag the teenager question up - I did that before I made my comparison between your limited experience with young people and your total lack of experience with burqa-wearing ladies.
Yes, I am serious. They would have to stop wearing it - or continue paying fines. I think the former option would be the preferred one.
I see you're still ignoring my question asking why, since there is no requirement whatsoever for this appalling uniform to be worn, it has suddenly become de rigueur amongst Muslim women. Clearly you don't want to think about that because it doesn't fit your idealistic and naively misinformed agenda.
And yes .... bullying, controlling, husbands and fathers are really going to welcome outreach workers coming along to tell their women their rights within a western society!! Of course they are! What a ridiculous suggestion!! God!! These men won't let a male dentist or doctor treat their women even if they're in pain!! Get real Everton for goodness sake!!
No need to drag the teenager question up - I did that before I made my comparison between your limited experience with young people and your total lack of experience with burqa-wearing ladies.
Yes, I am serious. They would have to stop wearing it - or continue paying fines. I think the former option would be the preferred one.
I see you're still ignoring my question asking why, since there is no requirement whatsoever for this appalling uniform to be worn, it has suddenly become de rigueur amongst Muslim women. Clearly you don't want to think about that because it doesn't fit your idealistic and naively misinformed agenda.
Eh?
The wearing of more noticeable Islamic dress, MAY, be as a result of the increased decadence within our own society, it is (possibly) a reaction on their part as a rejection of this action.
Limited expeience of young people?
You haven't a clue have you.
Why are they going to pay the fine?
Why are the neighbours going to report them?
You're right, a bullying husband won't welcome the interference, but he will get the interference with the correct outreach workers, working easily in a community that welcomes it's cooperation, not it's coersion.
Integration is a two way street, we have to ask what we're asking Muslims (and others) what they're integrating with, what qualities should they aspire to emulate?
The wearing of more noticeable Islamic dress, MAY, be as a result of the increased decadence within our own society, it is (possibly) a reaction on their part as a rejection of this action.
Limited expeience of young people?
You haven't a clue have you.
Why are they going to pay the fine?
Why are the neighbours going to report them?
You're right, a bullying husband won't welcome the interference, but he will get the interference with the correct outreach workers, working easily in a community that welcomes it's cooperation, not it's coersion.
Integration is a two way street, we have to ask what we're asking Muslims (and others) what they're integrating with, what qualities should they aspire to emulate?
Everton, so Muslim women living in their own countries have taken to wearing the burqa due to the increased decadence within OUR society? What twaddle! The rest of your post isn't worth wasting my time on. You have no conception of the world in which these women live - whether here or abroad - and you're making a complete fool of yourself. Open your eyes.
I have a real problem with a blanket ban on wearing a piece of clothing. I have real problems with the idea of criminalising women over an article of clothing. I have real problems with the idea of the police wasting their time, and taxpayers money, on arresting, escorting, charging and releasing such women.
I also have a real problem with the Niqab/Burka. I agree that in some cases at least, it is likely the women wearing them have been forced or conditioned into wearing them by mysoginistic, outdated, patriacharcal systems. Nor can they claim a religious duty, since as far as I am aware, all that some religious texts suggest is to dress modestly.It seems to me that as a country of the free,introducing a law to criminalise women over what clothes they wear is a retrograde and hugely illiberal move.
I think that, rather than criminalising the wearing of such clothing, it would be far better to make it a legal requirement ,with no right of appeal on either religious or cultural grounds, that you have to show your face when engaging in activities that demand extensive conversation, such as seeing a bank manager, or your health professional, or teaching a class, or that require ID confirmation, like presenting a passport, or CCTV cameras in banks etc.
I also have a real problem with the Niqab/Burka. I agree that in some cases at least, it is likely the women wearing them have been forced or conditioned into wearing them by mysoginistic, outdated, patriacharcal systems. Nor can they claim a religious duty, since as far as I am aware, all that some religious texts suggest is to dress modestly.It seems to me that as a country of the free,introducing a law to criminalise women over what clothes they wear is a retrograde and hugely illiberal move.
I think that, rather than criminalising the wearing of such clothing, it would be far better to make it a legal requirement ,with no right of appeal on either religious or cultural grounds, that you have to show your face when engaging in activities that demand extensive conversation, such as seeing a bank manager, or your health professional, or teaching a class, or that require ID confirmation, like presenting a passport, or CCTV cameras in banks etc.
Actually I'd like to pick up on another of LG's points.
//I agree that in some cases at least, it is likely the women wearing them have been forced or conditioned into wearing them by mysoginistic, outdated, patriacharcal systems. //
In that case, how can banning face coverings in public be a retrograde and hugely illiberal move? Surely if we don't we are condoning a man's right to force the women in his life to abide by his rules, and that cannot possibly be conducive to freedom, to women's rights, or to a civilised society.
//I agree that in some cases at least, it is likely the women wearing them have been forced or conditioned into wearing them by mysoginistic, outdated, patriacharcal systems. //
In that case, how can banning face coverings in public be a retrograde and hugely illiberal move? Surely if we don't we are condoning a man's right to force the women in his life to abide by his rules, and that cannot possibly be conducive to freedom, to women's rights, or to a civilised society.
Its illiberal Naomi, because its a shotgun, all or nothing approach. It will mean that women wearing the niqab are targeted by the police for wearing an article of clothing. That is hugely illiberal.I am unaware of any studies attempting to quantify the numbers of those women wearing such clothing because they are forced, and those wearing it because either they are culturally conditioned into wearing it, or those who wear it because they wish to. Over time, cultural conditioning can be overcome - it doesn;t need the matyrdom of criminalisation. Those who wish to wear it of their own free will should be allowed to, subject to what I said previously - that they have to show their face where appropriate.
I disagree LazyGun. Yes, it is an all or nothing approach, but I believe if we are dealing with an outdated ideology that accepts, and in many instances, demands, the subjugation of women then such an approach is essential. Numbers are irrelevant. In a civilised society, one woman walking 6 feet behind her man and being forced to concede to his every whim is one too many. The burqa is now in greater evidence than it ever was, much of it politically motivated, and this culture will not change of its own accord and neither will it be overcome by ignoring the injustice it espouses. Unless we are prepared to instigate laws designed to promote education, liberation, integration and advancement, then we fight it with one arm tied, voluntarily, behind our backs and our words of condemnation are hollow - and that, in my opinion, is the height of hypocrisy.
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