Listener Crossword 4104: Merchandise by Adam

[Zabadak]

I have a nice full grid, but not a clue what's going on. I don't want to know what the solution is, just that someone out there has seen a regular pattern (or whatever) that makes sense of the thing. Apologies if this thread has already started somewhere, but neither searching the site nor searching with google give any hits.

[Philoctetes]

....and, for those who submit, there is still just under a week to go till the deadline. Gloves should not come off till the SECOND wednesday, and then there could be a free-for all for confirmation, hints and downright answers. I'm with Listenerite, here (!). I enjoy the conversations here, but, sometimes, the blatant hints come much too early. When i started finishing regularly, I would usually overlap with the next week's puzzle, but would stick at it (often finding that having the second puzzle to ponder cleared my mind and helped with the first); finishing before Saturday was an achievement. I have gradually improved, and now I reckon to finish on Monday (I do not do it all in one session). If we start to give hints as early as we have found recently, this sense of development and achievement will be severely reduced.

[contendo]

My apologies to Ruthrobin & Mysterons for luring them into giving away too much and incurring the wrath of S-matrix. He's right really. It rather detracts from the sense of achievement if you can only get to the end by relying on help. Better to keep plugging away in the hope that light will dawn, even if you end up failing on a few crosswords. Mea culpa.

[Clamzy]

I agree with the sentiments of philoctetes in general but, playing devil's advocate, would point out that no-one has to read these threads before they have finished the puzzle. I think you will find that most regulars post when they have completed, and therefore don't compromise their sense of achievement. Also as RR pointed out not everyone here submits.
For anyone wanting to wait 3 weeks before any mention, let alone discussion, of Listener puzzles, I can recommend Derek Harrison's board which you can use with a perfectly clear conscience:-)

[BlackHugh]

phew - after three days of staring at the completed grid I have spotted the quotation!
It was nearly getting to be what I shall call a VEBM (think of a girl in "Just William") rather than a PDM

I'm with Clamzy on the discussion - no one needs to look here before they have completed. I have not noticed blatant hints being given anyway

[u10]

I also think that a restrained discussion of the puzzle does no harm. I personally did not gain any direct help from this weeks comments and eventually got the quote by testing out all of the possible places for the quotation - that was part of the fun even though it was quite frustrating. Crossword solving can be a lonely occupation, and the encouragement that the vast majority of contributors provide here is a real means of support. After all, this is the hardest crossword available in the UK and some of us are still at an early stage of coming to terms with barred puzzles. If the Listener Crossword is to thrive, we all need to encourage our friends to have a go, as many people seem to be put off at an early stage of solving. That's why AnswerBank is so good - mutual help without giving the game away. I notice that on "the other board" most Listener puzzles get no more than a dozen posts when the solution is published. This is a shame, particularly when most comments are along the lines of ......What a great puzzle.....I really enjoyed that.....etc. Keep up the good work all of you.

[Philoctetes]

I realise that no one needs to come here before solution. But, as I hoped I had conveyed (here and before), I do look here for the support that comes from knowing that others are finding this hard, that others have found a solution - in other words, that other people with the same passion for this crossword are enjoying the sweet pain that i am. This makes a community, which i enjoy being a part of. I do not think that visiting this site is a "cheat's charter", any more than talking about the puzzle with your mates down the pub is. However, blatant hints like the two given here recently are unnecessary, particularly as people in search of a hard nudge are asking for emails.

[Cruncher]

I'm with Philoctetes. I increasingly resist coming to this site whilst I'm still trying to solve a puzzle - whilst the camaraderie of knowing that there others who are struggling with an especially difficult puzzle is gratifying and oddly encouraging, there is also the random possibility that in among the thread there will be a blatant hint. I think it's fine for people to request advice and offer private email addresses for information. I am still suspicious that the occasional contributors that offer gratuitous hints are, to some extent, motivated by the opportunity to display their own knowledge for whatever kudos that gives them.

[logophile]

I could be wrong, but I think most people visit The Answerbank either to seek or provide an answer, and in the case of these threads the answers are more often hints than not. If I didn't fit one of these two categories, then I certainly wouldn't want my enjoyment of the puzzle to be spoiled by chance, and so would avoid visiting until after completion. I don't think that contendo needs to apologise for requesting a helping hand, which is after all the raison d'etre of this forum.

[Lewap]

An untimely post here, methinks - I still haven't located the quotation, so if someone could put me out of my [email protected].
Many thanks!

[Clamzy]

Paul - I've tried to respond but my email program won't recognise the address you gave as valid.
If others don't respond email me at [email protected]

[trux]

Have been travelling, so late with my comments - and only managed to disembed the quote this morning (thanks to large nudge, & Z's helpful pointer) .... clueing had some faults, still not sure about wordplay in 15A or 37A but confident both are right ... excellent hiding (and very neatly constructed, not "arbitrary" at all) if beyond the ability of most of us (at least unaided) which makes a change ... and, once found, a great quotation leader to the merchandise. I agree the previous two lines could happily have been included somehow .... for a variety of reasons, that's the longest a puzzle's taken me so far ...

[Mysterons]

'force' = lin

'dry' = welt

[trux]

thanks, Mysterons ... I geddit now ...

[Wideernie]

Right then, seeing that the gloves are now officially off, can someone give this uber-tortoise 1 down please.

1d. Embarrassed to show up in trailer (7)

I have 1a,17a,19a and I still can't see it!!
It's going to be a fair old slog from here for me!

[Mysterons]

'trailer' = ad

Not fantastic wordplay, as to embarrass can be to show up

[Wideernie]

Thanks Mysterons.
Am I out of my depth? I can finish theTimes crossword 4/5 times. Why do I struggle heniously with the Listener?

[Wideernie]

Well, according to Chambers, 'heniously' is not a word so no wonder I am struggling!:-)

[Wideernie]

Just finished this. I said it may take a while, hurrah!!!!!
The quotation wasn't that hard to find but the clues just killed me.
Onto Charybdis 'Out of Work' next, oh god.

[Wideernie]

Have just finished this. I said it may take a while, hurrah!!!
The quotation wasn't that hard to find but the south-west corner killed me.
Well, onto Charybdis and Elgin next, oh God!