ChatterBank1 min ago
That sounds about right or does it?
33 Answers
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He may have a point, most can say what they like about Christianity but when it comes to Islam that seems to be a different matter.
He may have a point, most can say what they like about Christianity but when it comes to Islam that seems to be a different matter.
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Sp, surely the biggest micky take off all was the comedy Father Ted, and not quite sure if there was rioting in the streets by Christians over that programme. It does seem that mentioning, debating or even writing a book, making a documentary on Islam elicits very strong reactions from people of the faith. It's as though in the eyes of many of the faithful they can do no wrong, and we mustn't be critical in any way. I adhere to no religion, but i do think that this chap has a valid point.
Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, and many others have all published books - which sold very well in the UK - systematically criticizing both Christianity, Islam and religion generally. Everyone on this forum is perfectly free to criticize Islam - don't let anyone fool you into thinking otherwise.
Bolton does, however, have a point. There does frequently seem to be something of a blind spot to the more unsavoury aspects of Islam that doesn't function in our society's quite correct scrutiny of Christianity. I think there are two reasons for that.
The first is largely because of organizations like the Daily Mail and - to be perfectly frank - people like you, AOG. The reason I say this is that these groups frequently put forward criticisms of Islam that are just very badly argued. Broadcasters and people generally worry about being lumped in with the same crowd - which is not something I think they *should* worry about, but they do nevertheless.
The second reason regards the response of large sections of the Islamic community to mockery and criticism. The controversies over the Danish cartoons/Salman Rushdie/South Park have intimidated large numbers of broadcasters about the issue of coming across as 'offensive'. Personally, I think this is a deplorable situation - and it's one which internet activists have been combatting frequently in the International Draw Muhammed Days of recent years.
Bolton does, however, have a point. There does frequently seem to be something of a blind spot to the more unsavoury aspects of Islam that doesn't function in our society's quite correct scrutiny of Christianity. I think there are two reasons for that.
The first is largely because of organizations like the Daily Mail and - to be perfectly frank - people like you, AOG. The reason I say this is that these groups frequently put forward criticisms of Islam that are just very badly argued. Broadcasters and people generally worry about being lumped in with the same crowd - which is not something I think they *should* worry about, but they do nevertheless.
The second reason regards the response of large sections of the Islamic community to mockery and criticism. The controversies over the Danish cartoons/Salman Rushdie/South Park have intimidated large numbers of broadcasters about the issue of coming across as 'offensive'. Personally, I think this is a deplorable situation - and it's one which internet activists have been combatting frequently in the International Draw Muhammed Days of recent years.
Kromovaracun
/// The first is largely because of organizations like the Daily Mail and - to be perfectly frank - people like you, AOG. The reason I say this is that these groups frequently put forward criticisms of Islam that are just very badly argued. ///
The points regarding Islam that both the Daily Mail, and yes myself choose to put forward are valid criticisms, but I can only speak for myself when I say that, I can't be held responsible if others choose to argue them badly.
/// The first is largely because of organizations like the Daily Mail and - to be perfectly frank - people like you, AOG. The reason I say this is that these groups frequently put forward criticisms of Islam that are just very badly argued. ///
The points regarding Islam that both the Daily Mail, and yes myself choose to put forward are valid criticisms, but I can only speak for myself when I say that, I can't be held responsible if others choose to argue them badly.
There is a fundamental difference (pun very much intended)
Islam and its followers (in terms of their defined responsibilities) has a zero tolerance of any behaviour that is other than 100% respectful. Because it is the 'one true religion' and its 'holy writings' are 'infallible' that is the only possible stance to take.
Exactly the same as the Christian churches In the 15th and 16th centuries where any deviance or independent thought was stamped on with brutality by the authorities who sought total control of the population.
The difference is that the vast majority of people in the West have moved on in the past 500 years and freed themselves from that sort of limitation.
There are of course individuals within Islam who have a more mature and liberal attitude and pockets of cultural islam (such as in Malaysia) which seem much more relaxed and tolerant.
The question is whether muslims living in those areas, and living in our western cultures can continue that process without being set back by fundamentalists and whether our coexistence can survive any clashes along the way.
I don't think muslims will take over here - for one thing 'we' still hold most of the cards in terms of enforcement. The worst case scenario I think is at some point, significant 'anti western' attacks by muslim interests in this country resulting in a decisive and bloody backlash that 'we' would win but would nonetheless find an unpleasant and costly experience.
Islam and its followers (in terms of their defined responsibilities) has a zero tolerance of any behaviour that is other than 100% respectful. Because it is the 'one true religion' and its 'holy writings' are 'infallible' that is the only possible stance to take.
Exactly the same as the Christian churches In the 15th and 16th centuries where any deviance or independent thought was stamped on with brutality by the authorities who sought total control of the population.
The difference is that the vast majority of people in the West have moved on in the past 500 years and freed themselves from that sort of limitation.
There are of course individuals within Islam who have a more mature and liberal attitude and pockets of cultural islam (such as in Malaysia) which seem much more relaxed and tolerant.
The question is whether muslims living in those areas, and living in our western cultures can continue that process without being set back by fundamentalists and whether our coexistence can survive any clashes along the way.
I don't think muslims will take over here - for one thing 'we' still hold most of the cards in terms of enforcement. The worst case scenario I think is at some point, significant 'anti western' attacks by muslim interests in this country resulting in a decisive and bloody backlash that 'we' would win but would nonetheless find an unpleasant and costly experience.
Krom is right. There are two reasons why people steer clear of criticizing Islam. The first is that they're scared of appearing bigoted, racist, or otherwise intolerant to their liberal peers. The second is that they're scared of being killed by fundamentalist nutjobs. Neither of those is a problem with christianity these days.
// The question is whether muslims living in those areas, and living in our western cultures can continue that process without being set back by fundamentalists and whether our coexistence can survive any clashes along the way. //
I personally think it will go the way of christianity and will eventually be dragged kicking and screaming into the modern age. The violence and nonsense that we see at the moment is part of that kicking and screaming process as anchronistic barbarity and ignorance clashes with modern liberal secularism. It may take a while yet though.
// The question is whether muslims living in those areas, and living in our western cultures can continue that process without being set back by fundamentalists and whether our coexistence can survive any clashes along the way. //
I personally think it will go the way of christianity and will eventually be dragged kicking and screaming into the modern age. The violence and nonsense that we see at the moment is part of that kicking and screaming process as anchronistic barbarity and ignorance clashes with modern liberal secularism. It may take a while yet though.
// You cannot drag people kicking and screaming into the 21st century, if that is not where they wish to go //
It's inevitable, whether they wish to go there or not. These medieval attitudes only thrive in backward places amongst the ignorant. You can see it in this country as a tendency of the children of immigrants to embrace western values often to the dismay of their parents.
Don't forget, religion has the massive inbuilt disadvantage of being nonsense.
But it won't be quick, I'll grant you that.
It's inevitable, whether they wish to go there or not. These medieval attitudes only thrive in backward places amongst the ignorant. You can see it in this country as a tendency of the children of immigrants to embrace western values often to the dismay of their parents.
Don't forget, religion has the massive inbuilt disadvantage of being nonsense.
But it won't be quick, I'll grant you that.
