Juice - concentrate...

[CailinDeas]

What's so bad about concentrate? Enlighten me please.

[daffy654]

It doesn't have the vitamins and goodness you get from freshly squeezed fruit.

[woofgang]

what kind of concentrate? It depends what has been done to it to make it keep.

[CailinDeas]

I presume that the water element (of the juice) is substantialy reduced. Otherwise, I would imagine, that the combination of the remainder remains as it was.

[theprof]

Well, I'll tell you what happens and then you can decide how bad concentrate is for you. I'll discuss orange juice but the method remains largely the same for all concentrated juices.

First of all, you need to understand that pure, pressed juice is costly to transport from the various countries around the world where the fruit occurs. So someone had the bright idea of removing the natural water in the orange juice by effectively boiling it off and then shipping the concentrated juice to the countries where it intended for sale. However, there was then the issue of the fresh juice becoming perishable during freight and again it was decided that the concentrated juice could be frozen into huge blocks for transportation.

So what happens at the other end? Well pure, unconcentrated orange juice has a more or less constant specific gravity.The importer allows the concentrate to melt in tanks and they then add purified water to the concentrate until it reaches the specific gravity of the pure juice taken from the orange tree. In theory, you will then have the same quanity of water added in to the concentrate as was boiled-off in the country of origin. Products made in this way have to be labelled "from concentrate".

The problem over the years is that some companies in the UK have been rather unscrupulous in the way that they add the water back. A good few years ago, I remember one processor being caught red handed adding tap water to the concentrate via a hosepipe.

The ethics of this method have been subject to debate for years, but this is why orange juice remains a fairly cheap commodity. Juice from concentrate is also pasteurised at either end of the supply chain, but again this pasteurisation can be detected by aficionados and doesn't appeal to everyone.

On a lighter note, when I was a lad many years ago, you could buy the frozen concentrate in a tube approximately around the size of the cardboard in a toilet roll. The ends of the tube had metal caps and the idea was that you opened the tube, placed the frozen orange concentrate in a suitable container to melt and then added a set amount of tap water. After stirring, you had orange juice of standard consistency.

Orange juice that's not marked "from concentrate" is imported as it is following filtration. The extra volume in freight costs is passed on to the consumer and that's why it's more expensive and can only be found in the chilled cabinets in shops

[coccinelle]

theprof; you can buy pasteurised fruit juices which are 100% juice so not found in the refridgerated areas of shops.

[theprof]

cocinelle, no you can't. Under EEC law, even if juice has been concentrated and water added at the UK end, it can still be called "100% Juice". I'm looking right now at a 1 litre of carton of "Pure Orange Juice" from the Lidl supermarket chain which claims it contains "100% Juice". The fact that the original product had all the excess water boiled off and added in the UK, does not stop a retailer claiming it's "100% Juice". I'm afraid you are being mislead, which is perfectly acceptable under EEC labelling regulations.

You simply could not afford to buy ambient temperature 100% juice in Tetrapacks in quantity due to the shipping costs involved as I said before. The Lidl one I'm looking at costs a mere 59p a litre I believe. Compare that price to the same volume sold in bottles/ cartons in the chillers of supermarkets.

Consumers are being milead over these matters constantly. My grandchildren like Ribena, which bears a collar saying "made from 100% blackcurrants". You might think that means 100% blackcurrant juice. It doesn't . Closer examination of the ingredients will show that Ribena is far from being pure blackurrant juice, but more importantly, the manufacturer states that the main ingredient is "blackcurrant concentrate". This blackcurrant concentrate is made in almost exactly the same way as "orange juice concentrate", therefore how can it be 100% blackcurrant? Incidentally, that's even before you add in the other ingredients such as sugar syrups etc.

[theprof]

While I'm about it, as you probably know, most UK food products disclose the country of origin. Ambient orange juice in Tetrapacks is exempt. One of the reasons for this is that the best orange juice comes from Florida and it's Florida origin has to be declared on the packaging. Check out the Tropicana series in chillers for confirmation.

The unchilled stuff you buy in the cardboard packs in UK supermarkets shows no country of origin but generally comes from Israel, Brazil and a few other countries. Don't confuse the processor country here eg my Lidl orange juice declares it's made in Germany, hardly an orange growing country.

This is the reason why own-brand tetrapack orange juice can taste so different from different supermarkets: some pasteurise it differently, others add or subtract the water due to be added to get the right SG, others add in sugars etc.

People who spend time in guesthouses or B&B establishments in the UK can detect these subtle changes in the taste which is why most B&B's nowadays only buy the stuff not made from concentrate and residing in supermarket chillers. Ambient Orange Juice can taste metallic in comparison to the real stuff

[coccinelle]

theprof; I'm not sure about UK supermarkets but here in France I can buy 100% juice. In the list of ingredients not one is water which it would have to be if water had been added to concentrate. There are packs which do state from concentrate so can't state '100% pure pressed fruit' which I buy and no sugar is added.

[theprof]

Oh dear. Let's try again. Have a second look at my previous posts. There is no necessity for processors to declare any water content in juice made from concentrate. The term 100% concentrate is meaningless. Whilst I appreciate you are in France, you are still in the EEC, just like Germany, where Lidl is based and conforms to the same marketing regulations no matter in which country their products are sold.

[theprof]

Let's put it another way. All juice sold at ambient ie room temperature in supermarkets is made from concentrate using the method I described earlier. Now orange juice freshly pressed from the fruit has a usable life of only four to five hours before it goes off and the taste changes dramatically. This is why juice that is going to be sold at ambient temperature must be pasteurised.

Now let's look at the orange juice sold in chillers in supermarkets all over the EEC. The juice is either labelled "from concentrate" or "not from concentrate". The concentrated ones are shipped to the country to be sold in the frozen, pasteurised form where the frozen blocks are allowed to melt and water is added to bring the SG up to the same as fresh orange juice. The final product is usually packaged in cartons and has a shelf-life of usually over a year in the supermarket main aisles.

The not from concentrated ones are also pasteurised, but shipped at a chilled temperature to their destination, sometimes repackaged and a have a limited shelf-life of only a few weeks in the chiller cabinet.

I appreciate the point you make that if water was added, it should be on the list of ingredients on a carton of ambient orange juice. Unfortunately, this is not true. Look at it like this. Ambient juice should only have sufficient water added to bring it up to the same SG as pure orange juice straight from the fruit contained before the water was boiled off and the juice frozen So water is not really added, it's just been replaced. Therefore the EEC does not require water to be listed on the ingredients list.

Simmer about half a litre of juice from concentrate in a saucepan on a hob slowly for 30 minutes and taste the resulting product. Yes,it's orange in colour but it tastes revolting. This is what frozen concentrated orange juice tastes like. Without the addition of water, you would not be able to drink it.

Finally, for those of you that believe that these issues should be clarified for the consumer, yes, you're absolutely right. However it's been going on for years unbeknown to the majority of consumers. Just ask your friends to define "juice from concentrate" to see for yourself.

[theprof]

Incidentally, there are to be found in chillers, juices that declare that they are made from concentrate. They are cheaper than the ones not made from concentrate and have a longer shelf life. However, they are still more expensive that the stuff sold in cartons at room temperature even though it's exactly the same product.

Coccinelle, Lidl branches are to be found all over France. So are Aldi. Pay them a visit to confirm what I've said above as I'm not only talking about the likes of Tesco, Sainsbury's, Asda and Morrisons in the UK

[coccinelle]

Never use them personally but will go in and have a look to see if what they're selling is the same as what I'm buying. Thank you for your interesting reply.