Boundary Query

[QuietLife]

We recently replaced a long standing fence. The neighbours say the new one encroaches into their garden. We have clear photographic evidence that the fence is in the same place. We checked our deeds to find further proof. The deeds actually clearly show the fence was wrongly positioned by the original builders years ago and moving the fence to reflect the deeds would actually involve a move of several inches nearer their house.

Question. Should they continue to dispute the fence line we would want to argue that any move of the fence should reflect the deeds. Would they be able to argue that they have gained a right to the land due to a lapse of time, and if so, what timescale gives them those rights?

[Old_Geezer]

I was under the impression that the deeds are not an arbiter of the precise boundary. Not that I'm an expert.

I have some interest in this type of situation since I own a property where the neighbour posted a note in my door on the Monday saying they were to put up a fence and if I wanted to discuss it then to contact them, on a Monday when they knew I wouldn't be back until the weekend. And when I'd got back they had changed the angle of the boundary to steal part of my garden, rooted up the one tree I had planted and that had thrived. I was most annoyed at the brazen theft.

Best of luck settling your dispute amicably.

[QuietLife]

Thank you. I am sorry to hear about your problems. I assure you, we have not encroached on our neighbour's land and we would hope they will let matters be resolved amicably. None the less, we need to know as they are not particularly pleasant people, (as others would testify) and will be quite tricky to deal with. I hope matters will be sorted out for you too. Clearly, your neighbours have behaved badly towards you.

[johnny37]

You are not my neighbour are you?? Was in the same situation deeds, etc. We ignored it for years until the neighbours decided to rplace the fence. Every time they played with boundaries alarm bells would ring. No notice was ever given but on this occasion we decided to dig our heels in. The plot in question was a 30 foot wedge which was 3 feet wide at the blunt end. After much foot stamping by them we met them more or less half way for the sake of good relations. At the end of the day they could have claimed adverse possession if they wanted to be really nasty.

[QuietLife]

No, we are not your neighbours. We did not "play with the boundaries" as I made clear in my post. I am not interested in their land, merely ours. We replaced the fence as it was and when they challenged it, have sought every proof we can to re-assure them that it is in the same place. We are not in the wrong here. I am sorry you have had problems and am pleased you resolved them amicably.

[buildersmate]

As OG correctly says, the Land Registry title plan is not the arbiter. The Land Registry refer to the 'red lines' drawn on the title plan as the 'General Boundaries'. You can pay the LR to go through a process called 'determining the Exact Boundary' which is costly (several hundred pounds) and involves surveyors. So don't go there - force them to do it, if they insist.
You need to understand here that there are two things in boundary law - the legal boundary as shown on the title plan and the physical boundary - which is what occurs on the ground. You'd think they would be the same, but the physical boundary can shift over time.
So you cannot use the LR title plan (or drawing if deeds on an old property not registered yet) to scale from - and anyway you say that having done the scaling, the boundary varies on the wrong side anyway.
The set of photos taken before you took the old fence down should do the trick. Let them have a copy, or use the photos to try and discuss it with them.
How much (in centimetres) are they arguing about?

[QuietLife]

First of all, thank you for replying. I have seen the help you have given others so I was hoping you would respond when I placed my answer.

Firstly the neighbours say that the new fence is 6 inches into their garden. Our photographs clearly show this and we have sent them a polite letter and the evidence. We are hoping they will accept this but they can be tricky. We consulted our deeds as further reassurance for them, and only then did we discover that the fence if correctly placed would be about another foot towards their house. If they were to claim this land, they would have to claim adverse possession and thus admit the land was ours. They would then have the expense of claiming it. What I need to know is whether they would be successful. The deeds and the original plans clearly show the line (it is not ambiguous). Sure they could use the LR but the LR would come to the same conclusion as the deeds as it is so obvious from just standing there and looking at the ground where the line should be. The original fence was placed wrongly we think, to avoid drains. If you have anything to add, we would be grateful to hear it. Please accept, we are decent, honourable people who do not want a dispute. Presumably, if they do not respond to our letter, it is an unresolved dispute and would have to be disclosed to any purchaser should they decide to sell their property and the same with us. It is in no one's interest for them to continue to claim the fence is wrongly placed?

[QuietLife]

PS Sorry. Paragraph two, sentence two should state "clearly NOT the case".

[buildersmate]

Agree, it is in no one's interest for this to drag on, and one would be best to declare it if one was selling the property, as a purchaser could have a claim if you didn't, and the neighbour caused trouble for them. But you have the photos, and they now have a copy, so see what they do next. It would be criminal damage if they interfere with your fence. I suspect they are trying it on.

[BlueToffee]

In France they put marker posts, bournes, at the corners of each plot. There can be no disputes after they go in, as they are set in concrete.

How much better would that be if we adopted the same system here?

Of course, this doesn't solve your problem QL, I hope it is sorted amicably for you, and you too OG, sad situation.

[QuietLife]

Thank you buildersmate. We have heard nothing further, but it is early days.

Blue toffee - a great idea. I wonder why that is not done here. It would make the situation clear for everyone.