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Listener 4350 - Revelation Of John By Elfman
34 Answers
Wow! After staring at the full grid for hours off and on, I finally saw one of the words...then another..and then I was done. Thanks, Elfman, for a first-rate Listener!
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Just got it.
There's so much I loved about this puzzle - strong clues, a really lovely device to hide characters in clues, and a great theme. I went down a LOT of blind alleys on the word search, and I wonder if it would have been possible to be a little more explicit about the target words - the preamble makes perfect sense when you know what is needed, but before that point, a whole range of other possibilities suggest themselves. Even with the reference to symmetry.
Glad I persevered though.
There's so much I loved about this puzzle - strong clues, a really lovely device to hide characters in clues, and a great theme. I went down a LOT of blind alleys on the word search, and I wonder if it would have been possible to be a little more explicit about the target words - the preamble makes perfect sense when you know what is needed, but before that point, a whole range of other possibilities suggest themselves. Even with the reference to symmetry.
Glad I persevered though.
Fortunately, one of my co-solvers noticed the hint and was able to deduce its implications when combined with a clue answer. He was also more familiar with the appropriate writings.
I find these sorts of word searches--I don't know what I'm looking for and I don't know where to look--to be tedious. I'm glad that others have more patience than I do.
I find these sorts of word searches--I don't know what I'm looking for and I don't know where to look--to be tedious. I'm glad that others have more patience than I do.
My first ever post (and possibly last!). This crossword finally moved me to do what I've been meaning to do for some time and sign up so that I can thank the contributors here for the guidance you've given me on Listeners for the past three or four years.
I've been doing the Listener for over 20 years and I like to think I'm a competent (ish) Listener solver (especially now I can use computer aids!) but I know my limitations. I probably get about 70% right each year. But I've got to the point where life is too short to spend hours over a puzzle I'm never going to finish. Some puzzles are way beyond me and often that is obvious at first sight (e.g. number puzzles, and the Tetris one). I give those a miss, but I'll usually make a start on the Listener on Friday evening if I'm at home, or as soon as possible after that, but if I grind to a halt I'll come here to see what the experts say. I know that sounds like brown nosing but I mean it!
I was out this Friday evening but I did get time to spend an hour on Elfman, and I got over a quarter of the grid filled. I know that the Elfster is a hard setter so I was rather surprised, and so when I rolled back in late after a few too many beers I came here to see how you folk were getting on. No thread had been posted - bad sign. Only four comments on Saturday morning even though I'd finished filling the grid - really not looking good. I got a load of gibberish from the coded message despite trying the obvious methods, and couldn't find anything in the completed grid, and by then a few more posts had appeared, many along the lines of "hours of grid staring needed". That meant I could quit with a clear conscience and gracefully concede defeat to Elfman.
I have seen some incredibly patronising and quite nasty posts on other crosswords sites about these threads and they are under the delusion that everyone's here to cheat their way to the Solver Silver Salver. Nothing could be further from the truth - you are all very good about avoiding spoilers while at the same time giving Listener addicts a good indication of whether a puzzle is within their grasp or not. Thank you, and sorry to have gone on a bit.
I've been doing the Listener for over 20 years and I like to think I'm a competent (ish) Listener solver (especially now I can use computer aids!) but I know my limitations. I probably get about 70% right each year. But I've got to the point where life is too short to spend hours over a puzzle I'm never going to finish. Some puzzles are way beyond me and often that is obvious at first sight (e.g. number puzzles, and the Tetris one). I give those a miss, but I'll usually make a start on the Listener on Friday evening if I'm at home, or as soon as possible after that, but if I grind to a halt I'll come here to see what the experts say. I know that sounds like brown nosing but I mean it!
I was out this Friday evening but I did get time to spend an hour on Elfman, and I got over a quarter of the grid filled. I know that the Elfster is a hard setter so I was rather surprised, and so when I rolled back in late after a few too many beers I came here to see how you folk were getting on. No thread had been posted - bad sign. Only four comments on Saturday morning even though I'd finished filling the grid - really not looking good. I got a load of gibberish from the coded message despite trying the obvious methods, and couldn't find anything in the completed grid, and by then a few more posts had appeared, many along the lines of "hours of grid staring needed". That meant I could quit with a clear conscience and gracefully concede defeat to Elfman.
I have seen some incredibly patronising and quite nasty posts on other crosswords sites about these threads and they are under the delusion that everyone's here to cheat their way to the Solver Silver Salver. Nothing could be further from the truth - you are all very good about avoiding spoilers while at the same time giving Listener addicts a good indication of whether a puzzle is within their grasp or not. Thank you, and sorry to have gone on a bit.
Welcome Telramund, and I for one hope it won't be your last post!
fyellin - I admit I was almost tempted to share the dozens upon dozens of wrong ideas I had (I have a few sheets of paper with lots of scribbled, then crossed-out, thoughts on them...) Maybe it would be useful therapy to so once the solution has come out!
fyellin - I admit I was almost tempted to share the dozens upon dozens of wrong ideas I had (I have a few sheets of paper with lots of scribbled, then crossed-out, thoughts on them...) Maybe it would be useful therapy to so once the solution has come out!
I could just let my avatar do the commenting for me, I suppose.
I have an inkling of a thematic idea that would be justified by the puzzle's title and the need for selective exclusions, but it came only from the solving of what may (or may not) be a significant clue. I've been trying to find a way into the grid-staring from that point but without success. Can't even do what it suggests should be done to the gibberish.
And another thing ... I don't even agree with those who liked the clues, many of which struck me as uninspired/uninspiring, e.g. 2, 6, 17, 36. All in all, the worst kind of GWIT, with not just the usual one impenetrable barricade to surmount, but two.
Yet the solution has been found by some who've posted here! Well, many years ago there was a Listener that attracted only eight correct entries, so nothing's impossible if you try, etc, but it's too much for me. I prefer to be Ugly.
I have an inkling of a thematic idea that would be justified by the puzzle's title and the need for selective exclusions, but it came only from the solving of what may (or may not) be a significant clue. I've been trying to find a way into the grid-staring from that point but without success. Can't even do what it suggests should be done to the gibberish.
And another thing ... I don't even agree with those who liked the clues, many of which struck me as uninspired/uninspiring, e.g. 2, 6, 17, 36. All in all, the worst kind of GWIT, with not just the usual one impenetrable barricade to surmount, but two.
Yet the solution has been found by some who've posted here! Well, many years ago there was a Listener that attracted only eight correct entries, so nothing's impossible if you try, etc, but it's too much for me. I prefer to be Ugly.
AngryUncle, I completely agree with you that it's a GWIT puzzle. I too had an inkling of a theme from the title and an associated word suitably placed in the grid, but despite finding some promising words obscurely hidden I came up against a dead end eventually.
I'm relieved that I've called it a day and am spending my time more profitably than in further grid-staring. I'd far rather wrestle with a tough Sabre than engage with this sort of brain-number.
I'm relieved that I've called it a day and am spending my time more profitably than in further grid-staring. I'd far rather wrestle with a tough Sabre than engage with this sort of brain-number.
The preambles seem to have attracted more attention than the grid fills in a number of recent puzzles. So should we/the editors encourage the application of the "rules" we expect to be used or clues to be used for preambles as well? So, following Afrit, misdirection seems a very suitable element for them (they may not always mean what they appear to say) but obfuscation or insufficient information creates problems (they do need to say what they mean). And following Ximenes, best practice is to include clear instructions insofar as they are needed (as for definitions) and fair clues to what the compiler is up to (the subsidiary indication) - and nothing else (short is good...).
A couple of hours to fill the grid, a couple of days (on and off) grid-staring, pursuing wrong ideas, looking at Elfman's previous Listener themes (not helpful) before a sudden PDM, and if I didn't know what the illustration was supposed to be, I certainly wouldn't know by looking. So not a favourite then?
Plus points: some very good clues, great construction, several very apt red herrings - I don't think they should be mentioned here, yet.
Minus points: some slightly awkward clues, probably due to constraints of message. Message somewhat inaccurate. Connections of theme/illustration not convincing, unless I'm missing something. Although I don't find it unfair, I do feel that more logical pointers could have been used.
Enjoyed it, overall - I expect some frustration from each Listener!
Minus points: some slightly awkward clues, probably due to constraints of message. Message somewhat inaccurate. Connections of theme/illustration not convincing, unless I'm missing something. Although I don't find it unfair, I do feel that more logical pointers could have been used.
Enjoyed it, overall - I expect some frustration from each Listener!
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