Designer Mongrels

[barry1010]

My daft question of the week because I should know the answer.
If I breed two poodles I can be certain the puppies will be poodles.

If I breed two cockerpoos (as an example of a designer mongrel) what will I get? I don't the puppies will be cockerpoos

[Deskdiary]

They’re crossbreeds. And I speak as an owner of a Cavachon. Had Labs for many years, and when the last one died we decided to go for a lapdog. He’s a great dog, and definitely doesn’t shed, so that’s a bonus, and when we bought him 4 years ago the pricing was sensible, about £500, but the prices for crossbreeds are now utterly mental...a friend has very recently bought a Bichon cross (can’t remember the other make) and he paid £3k. That is utterly bananas.

[ToraToraTora]

what I have described above is basically what has happened to dog kind over the last 30000 years (11000 if you onlt go back to the 5 strains). Once a cockapoo has emerged and then breeds with other cockapoos it has in effect become the "pure" breed so beloved of the dog show types who are essentially utterly clueless about their own obsession.

[pixie374]

DD //and he paid £3k. That is utterly bananas//. You could see it that way, but frankly, I've paid more for a mere car. They are worth whatever people will pay.

[woofgang]

its not quite as easy as that. Even in "purebreds" sometimes "should not be in that breed" properties show up like the wrong colour or coat type. The longer that the breed has been selectively bred, the less likely the amonalies are to show up but the smaller the gene pool gets.

Where you are breeding f1 and f2 hybrids, there is a much bigger range of properties that can appear so an f1 litter can show massive differences accross the litter. In an F2 litter not only is there the possibility of the litter showing various properties that can be seen in the parents, but properties from the grandparents can also appear.

Hybrid vigour btw is another "not clear" issue. Mixed breed dogs can also suffer with inherited defects if their parents had them. breeding a dog with inherited defects to one without will increase the chances of healthy puppies but why would you not want pups from 2 healthy parents?

[Jojo75000]

You would get Mongrels as there is no such thing as a designer dog and with mixed breeds there is no guarantee just what the pups will turn out like. `Designer` is just a made up posh word BYB`s to fool gullible people into believing they are buying something even better than a pedigree bred puppy, and to make a fortune by asking extortionate prices for these poorly bred pups.

[woofgang]

Vagus "Price is based on demand lankeela, I don’t think there’s any ‘should’ or ‘should not’ about how much any dog costs."

Its not the pound notes, its what that means people will do. If there was no money to be made then back yard breeders (greeders) wouldn't be so prevalent. Puppy farms wouldn't be money making concerns. Dogs would not be harvested and imported to be sold here as "rescues"

[pixie374]

Woof, I understand all that, but I'm not sure it's that straightforward. "Carefully bred" for purebreeds, is generally because they have to be- mostly because a lot of them at some point or other have been so interbred, that certain problems become wellknown to certain breeds. And of course, they can pass it on with crossbreeding. But we have caused these with deliberate breeding and now have to correct it.
Realistically, if dogs were always left as mongrels, the gene pool would have been far more mixed and healthier from the start. It's humans that have made certain breeds unhealthy.

[lankeela]

Pixie why do suppose that is? Could it be because only the fittest survive and all those with health problems would die out or be killed by the stronger survivors?

[lankeela]

Can someone explain how you can tell whether or not a cockapoo is inbred? If you have no pedigree information and mate it to another cockapoo how do you know you are not breeding close relatives?

[lankeela]

The current ridiculous price of puppies has led to the horrendous rise is dog thefts - it is easier money than selling drugs and usually with far less risk. In the past couple of weeks police have raided certain 'sites' and recovered 83, 59 and 27 dogs that are believed to have been stolen.

[pixie374]

Lankeela, to a degree, like anything living. But mostly, because the more genes there are to choose from and the less inbred they are, the less likely they are to have problems in the first place. You'll obviously know the problems with inbreeding- cavaliers with heart problems etc.
There may be two equally valid points of view. I would expect professional breeders and showers to be concerned with a breed quality. But also, the majority of dogs are probably kept as pets- and I don't think most people are worried if their dog has a wrong flash of white on it.

[lankeela]

Actually one breed recently changed their standard to avoid white colouring on the body of the dog, as it can be as a result of 'white factoring' which can cause health concerns. The biggest problem with colours at present are those breeding non standard colours such as pink Pugs or lilac Bulldogs, as well as the proliferation of merle which is known to cause blindness and deafness in many cases.

[pixie374]

Like white cats with blue eyes are usually deaf? Unless they have a black mark between their ears...
I'm well aware of genetics and how breeders want to "improve" them, fair enough.
I'm just less convinced that most owners are actually bothered. And dogs, of any breeds or mixes, can be very valued family members for 15+ years.
Do you think, that professional breeders and buyers, always have the same priorities?

[pixie374]

//pink Pugs or lilac Bulldogs, as well as the proliferation of merle which is known to cause blindness and deafness in many cases.//

Out of interest, why is that?

[Mamyalynne]

https://pethelpful.com/dogs/What-is-a-Double-Merle-Dog-The-Dangers-of-Merle-to-Merle-Breeding

[pixie374]

Thanks mamya x I guessed that much. I was more interested in whether these "deficienicies" were cause by human breeding or were entirely natural x

[ToraToraTora]

they are ALL mongrels, end of!

[pixie374]

TTT, I doubt many care... I have 4 spaniels now, I have had 9, 2 with full pedigrees and testing- and one of those died at only 8.

[woofgang]

pixie374 "Woof, I understand all that, but I'm not sure it's that straightforward. "Carefully bred" for purebreeds, is generally because they have to be- mostly because a lot of them at some point or other have been so interbred, that certain problems become wellknown to certain breeds. And of course, they can pass it on with crossbreeding. But we have caused these with deliberate breeding and now have to correct it.
Realistically, if dogs were always left as mongrels, the gene pool would have been far more mixed and healthier from the start. It's humans that have made certain breeds unhealthy."

well.......kind of. Regardless of what type of dog they are, if they carry inheritable diseases they will pass on the disease...and if the dog they are bred to has inheritable diseases then those will get passed on too.

A case in point that I know about is hip displasia in weimaraners. The average scores now in carefully bred animals are much better than they were 30 years ago because many breeders cared enough to choose carefully when they bred their bytches and refused to allow the dogs to be used by any old person.

If dogs were left to run in groups and choose their own partners, then the fittest would survive and those who weren't healthy enough wouldn't survive tout court.
However we know this doesn't happen with pet dogs. The pairings are chosen by humans or are from accidents which, without health testing is a lottery no matter what the dog.

You won't get any argument from me about people breeding for looks over health and temperament. Its bad if its done in the show world, its bad if its done in the pet world.

but if you believe that a dog who is a mongrel or a crossbreed is healthier or better in temperament simply because they are hybrids, crossbreeds or mongrels then you are wrong. Some crossbreeds can be a very risky proposition, for instance if you mix a guarding and a herding breed without having a clear idea what you are doing.

[pixie374]

Woof, I know all that, but also- that is because of human breeding. I do agree about crossbreed and that there are differences between different breeds.... but to put it basically... if you got two random mongrels breeding without human interference- they are actually more likely to be healthy, purely due to the mix of genes.
Im some ways, the more we try to breed dogs into what we want, the more damage we do.