Do Churches Need To Be De- And Re- Consecrated When A New Franchise Moves In?

[AB Editor]

Morning,

I was wondering how a new franchise takes over a church. For example, what if there was a little Baptist church run by a Baptist priest/vicar and then, for some reason, the church was sold to the Catholic church.

Naturally they want to get one of their team in behind the pulpit, so they give Jonny Baptists his/her marching orders.

And then what?

Do they take over "fully furnished" in the sense of continuing the consecration "ticket", or do they de-consecrate and reapply their own "ticket"? Or do they just paint over the top with their version, so there's overlap?

I'd like to know the answer, but would also like any little stories you know about this kind of thing :)

Thanks in advance,

Ed

[Old_Geezer]

Oh God doesn't recognise the place as belonging to the true religion until they do all the rituals properly. Stands to reason.

[sandyRoe]

In these times they probably have some ceremony after they'd installed the mihrab and removed the pews.

[ferryman]

One in my area went from Buddhist to evangelical Christian something or other. All they did was gut the place and hold their first service so I suppose that was like a cleansing of sorts. Maybe each religion doesn't bother with what went on before

[jomifl]

I think all religious meeting places should carry a consecration certificate in a prominent place. Something along the lines of;
'This building(plan showing spatial limits of conecrationavailable for inspection at town hall) has been consecrated as a place of worship for use by members of the following religions(list appended). Members of religions not listed may not achieve full communion with their deity and prayers my not be answered as quickly as is usual.
I hereby certify the building according to the terms and limitations above.
Signed.....................................................(signature of ruling deity)

[AB Editor]

Can we avoid the god bashing please? I know it's what some of you are here for, but this is a serious question for people who actually know what they're on about (I hope!)

[AB Editor]

(I do recognise they're gentle knocks, but they're not my answer all the same!)

[ferryman]

Mine was not god bashing I was telling you what I know even if it didn't answer all of your question.

[sandyRoe]

Apart from the time he prescribed the tablets to Moses he usually uses an amanuensis. Signing certificates would be beneath him.

[AB Editor]

I recognise that, I don't mean all of you - I'm trying to get ahead of the crowd!

I wonder if Buddists need to consecrate their grounds in the first place?

I went to a Thai restaurant which had previously been a church, I wonder if that had to be be de-consecrated?

[jomifl]

Apologies Ed if I misunderstood your question, I took the use of the word 'franchise' as a hint of light irony. I was also hinting that perhaps the word 'consecration' is just a bit too vague to have any real meaning. Does it just mean what people want it to mean? a bit like the 10 commandments.

[jomifl]

Since Buddhists do not have a deity I don't see how consecration would work for them.

[AB Editor]

It does seem quite vague: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consecration seems to mean a lot of things, but mostly to make a place sacred.

Buddhists have had a lot of wars over holy places, so I'd imagine the concept exists for them - whether it exists for the one down the highstreet in Clapham I've no idea!

I'm not really grumpy, just getting it in early!

[woofgang]

Churches that are changed to non religious places are deconsecrated first, even the bombed church in Southampton that is a monument and still has services held there (not sacraments though) has been deconsecrated.
here's an interesting website
http://www.ourproperty.co.uk/guides/buying_a_church_conversion.html

Two religions can share a church
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1969/38

more general info
http://www.peterboroughdiocesanregistry.co.uk/consecration.html

[JoolsTwo]

I think......but I'm not 100% certain. If a church becomes redundant and is taken over by a non-religious group the church would be de-consecrated. If it was taken be another religion it wouldn't need to be re-consecrated. Once it has been consecrated by one religion any other one can use it. We used to attend Catholic Mass in a Methodist Church where we used to live as the Catholic Church was too far away to get to without a car.

[AB Editor]

Thanks Woof & Jools - that is helpful. So it's a very "functional" blessing then - only being "removed" once it's no longer needed.

Also interesting that a ticket can be used by two "teams".

[Octavius]

In the catholic church there is a very specific ceremony for consecration of the church, whether that be a new church or rebranding is immaterial as no other consecration will be applicable to canon law other than the RC rite as carried out by the appropriate person (diocesan bishop etc). Virtually any place can be consecrated if deemed appropriate enough. "Of consecration proper the Roman Pontifical contains one of persons, that is of a bishop, and four of things, that is, of a fixed altar, of an altar-stone, of a church, and of a chalice and paten."

I'm not really sure about paint colours, but the essence of the service/ritual is to separate out the diviine place of worship (dedication) the "setting aside" of places for a special and sacred purpose. It involves a service with ashes being dranw out, and holy water being sprinkled on walls and columns with lots of chanting and cantations.

[AB Editor]

So the RC would have to de & re? Or just re?

[woofgang]

In times gone past, RC churches also often had a holy relic sealed into the Altar and this had to be removed with due ceremony.

[woofgang]

its not just removed because it is no longer needed, but because it would be a desecration to do things like have a restaurant or even a private house, let alone a casino and nightclub, which has happened in Southampton, in a consecrated space. Some churches used to sell their deconsecrated buildings with a covenant that alcohol could never be consumed on the premises, although the info says that this is now rare.

[AB Editor]

"In times gone past, RC churches also often had a holy relic sealed into the Altar and this had to be removed with due ceremony."

Can you tell me any more about that? What kind of ceremony? Any why would it be removed? Other than the Church falling down? Do you mean for the relic to go on tour?