My God, My God, why have you forsaken me ?

[mfewell]

Words from the cross by Christ. Can I add a tilt to them. They are supposed to be a fulfillment of the OT, but what if, when Christ uttered them from the cross, that they were more than that and utterly true, i.e. God the Father had momentarily forsaken his son ? Imagine for a moment that Christ in hanging there did indeed take all the badness of all time on his shoulders ? Can you imagine a pain any worse and a love any higher ? Just a thought, but by heck it sticks with me.

[flubber]

Well I am sorry you have got some daft replies and glad you got some help.

At 14 with an analytical mind I asked in my RI class teacher at school if it was possible that Jesus had made some sort of arrangement with his blind buddy that he could "suddenly see" and it would be declared a miracle - I was not trying to be cute or funny - I was analysing all aspects as to what was written and passed down as a miracle, in as much as do we accept a word of 2000 years ago, or were there other means behind it all that recorded the outcome.

I don't think God momentarily forgot his son. I don't think that Christ took all the badness at the time from the world upon his shoulders - but he believed and left a message to us all to stop, deep think, change our individual ways..........he made us simply stop and think way back then and it worked because the proportion of the population to this day do abide by the 10 commandments and so on, and by heck the manner Christ died was a pain beyond any of us will ever endure - so a moot point and an unanswerable one mfewell.

[LordyGeordie]

Chessman's raised a point which has always confused me. I was once taught (i can't remember where) that despair in God was the one unforgiveable sin. By believing that God had forsaken him surely he was committing that sin and if so why isn't he in hell. I've asked that question to loads of people and never got a proper answer yet.

[Clanad]

Well, LordyGeordie, may I offer this... in Matt 12:32, and Mk. 3:29, the unforgiveable sin is clearly defined as blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.  It is the Spirit who causes men to recognize who Jesus is.  In Hebrews Chapters 6 and 10 there's a discussions of unforgivable sins, but the distinction between blasphemy against ha Massiach and Ruac ha Kodesh has disappeared. Yeshua is saying this: Because the Holy spirit has not yet been poured out in fullness, the Jews will be forgiven for blaspheming the Son of Man. They will be given a second chance to repent, as we see in the book of Acts (after the Day of Pentecost). If, however, they continue to blaspheme after the Spirit has come, they will not be forgiven. But what is the sin, specifically? Since it is blasphemy, we must see it essentially as a willing sin. In context it is the sin of saying that the Christ is of the devil. Yeshua was willing to excuse this blasphemy before Pentecost; but, in the new covenant era it is no longer excusable. If a person curses Jesus, but does not really know who Jesus is, that sin is forgivable. But if the Holy Spirit has borne witness to a person that Jesus is indeed the Son of God, and that person curses Him, it cannot be forgiven...

[Clanad]

flubber, without any intention of being confrontational, you're response simply flies in the face of Scriptural attestation.  If that doesn't matter, then you are as right as anyone else.  If Scripture, both the Old and New Covenants, is an historical record of events and if Yeshua is to fulfill all of the prophesies contained in the Old Covenant, then you overlook or disregard some powerful eyewitness evidence.  The authorities of the time, i.e., the Sanhedrin and Pharisees clearly knew, without a doubt that Yeshua had performed this and all the other miracles.  The witnesses knew, also without a doubt, that the healed blind man was assuredly blind.

You're disregard for the evidence is most clearly pictured in your belief or feeling that Elohim did not turn away from the sin filled Son.  "He that knew no sin, was made sin on our behalf; so that in him we might become the righteousness of G-d." (II Corinthians 5:21).  Elsewhere in Old and New, it clearly states that G-d cannot even look upon sin because of His indescribable holiness. You see, this is exactly what Yeshua feared so greatly the night before in the garden.  Oh, I'm sure, he was aware of the physical pain to come... but that was minor, compared to the separation from G-d the Father, all for us.  The cross of Christ was no afterthought in G-d's plan of redemption. Indeed, the Lamb of G-d was "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 14:8, KJV). This eternal plan was about to be fulfilled and Yeshua was facing a terror that we can't begin to comprehend. Then... He was suddenly, for the first time in eternity... alone... But, ... "Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of G-d� (Hebrews 12:1-2).

[mimififi]

Whenever I think about the crucifixtion, at communion, or even whenever, driving along, walking on the beach, the whole situation fills me with sorrow.  Real, shame and real, real, sorrow.

I think the thing for me is because it is so personal.  Christ died for me.  Even if everyone else in the whole entire world past, present and future were perfect and sinless and I was the only sinful person in the world, even if I had only ever done 1 sin, Christ still would have died just for me.  And it fills me with shame to think that even before I knew I was lost, God had already set a plan in motion to save me.

Jesus' words on the cross prove that he was both man and God.  God is perfect and utterly incapable of sinning or carrying any sin on him at all.  When jesus chose to die (yup, in the bible it says, "then he gave up his breath- this is not just purple prose for "he cahoofed it", he made the decision to be done with it.) he took the whole world's sin upon his shoulders was covered in sin and God could not, was incapable of, sharing in it becuase of his own perfection.  From that point, Jesus was on his own, he was severed from the father because of our sin. 

[mimififi]

the point about Jesus having to be a perfect lamb does go back to OT references and the rules set down to the isrealites regarding sub standard sacrifices etc, of which I'm no expert (Clanad, help me out please).

Christ's suffering is amazing.  In Roman times prisoners were usually either scourged or crucified, rarely did anyone suffer both.  Usually if anyone was scourged, it would kill them and there wouldn't be anything left to crucify.  The Roman's weren't being kind to J and just giving him a bit of a scourging, they went out and out for it, and were shocked that he didn't die.  It was a miracle  that he didn't die.

[mimififi]

God is a merciful God.  If a person hasn't heard or cannot hear or understand the Gospel, then God will judge that person according to what he knows.  He would not condemn tiny babies, or disabled people who have no understanding to Hell, or unreashcable people, but that is why we are called to make disciples of ALL nations. 

But he will judge those who have heard the gospel and displayed a barefaced dislike to it and utter rejection of it.  Some people say "I haven't sinned, I don't need anyone to save me; I'm a nice person..." blah blah blah. the truth is, we have ALL fallen short of the glory of God, everyone who has ever lied, gossipped, been unkind, been jealous, been adultorous, everyone who has been spiteful and snide, non-tolerant, sharp tongued, filled with rage; EVERYONE WITHOUT exception has fallen short.  When I stand at judgement and my sins are being read out, Christ will step out as my ambassador and tell the father that he knows me intimately and that I am a child of God. 

If you would prefer to go to heaven and avoid hell, then I would suggest you get yourself along to the nearest ALPHA COURSE or CHRISTIANITY EXPLAINED course, or any old church, and start asking some questions and start praying.  If you are reading this, you have heard  the gospel and you need to make a choice.  Make it a GOOD ONE!

[mimififi]

May I also add to go with my first post, the shame is added to when I look at my own family.

I have a son.  A son who in my view is the most perfect son alive.  If you asked me to sacrifice my son to save a people who i didn't even know, to save people who would reject his sacrifice and laugh at his suffering and cast sneering and snide comments on what he had done, I would never give my son for that.

I  wouldn't even give my son's life to save my own dear mother's life.

God gave his son's life for me.  A nobody.

[Clanad]

mimififi, an aside referencing your description of the Lamb... It's truly amazing, having read and re-read the Bible for many years, that, when the Spirit of G-d wants you to see something, it's there... always has been, but you've only now seen it.  Look at Genesis Chapter 22.... you know the story.  Abraham (used to be Abram, but that's another subject) has been called to Mt. Moriah (present day location of the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem) to sacrifice Isaac.  Even though he knows full well that he is to sacrifice Isaac, he tells his servants in verse 5, to stay here and "... we will come back to you".  He believed G-d enough that even if he was to go through with the sacrifice Isaac would, somehow be raised from the dead.  But the most important prophetic part is where, vs. 13, after being stopped by G-d, Abraham looks up and sees a ram caught by it's horns in the bramble.  This became the sacrifice, but only for that time.  Notice, in the previous verses 7 and 8, in response to Isaac's query about where the lamb was for the sacrifice, Abraham says, Adonai himself will provide the lamb!  Abraham must have had a glimpse of Calvary to come some 2000 years hence.

Thanks for covering the question about those who haven't heard the Good News.  That subject is covered as well... firstly, all people are accountable to know that G-d exists. "For since the creation of the world G-d's invisible qualities -- his eternal power and divine nature -- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse" (Romans 1:20). The complexity of the world around us tells us that there is a G-d (even though people can suppress that knowledge in their heart). Even those who haven't heard of Jesus are accountable for knowing that G-d is.

Contd.

[Clanad]

Contd.

Secondly, we're all accountable for knowing that we are sinners. The Old Testament law proves that we're sinful. Who has perfectly loved G-d or their neighbor? Therefore, "through the law we become conscious of sin" (Romans 3:20). But what about people who do not know the Old Testament law? The Bible tells us that even people who don't have that law nonetheless have their own "law" -- their own moral standard within their hearts (Romans 2:14-15) and they are held accountable to their performance of that standard.  But know that no matter who is saved, they will receive salvation on the basis of G-d's grace, not by their works.

Finally, I would offer in difference, you will not stand in front of Yaweh and be confronted with sins you committed here on Earth.  G-d clearly states that, not only has He forgiven them, but He has forgotten them!   G-d has forgotten my sins, even tomorrow�s sins. Heb. 8:12 � "And I will forgive their wrongdoings, and I will never again remember their sins." Psalm 103:12 � He has removed our rebellious acts as far away from us as the east is from the west. I John 1:9 Good News...  We are spared even appearing at the Great White Throne judgement of Revelations 20, Verse 11...  So, it's not difficult at all being full of joy...

 

[El D]

Yes well I suppose if I was small enough to be scared by your childish fantasies you would have just convinced me. You must be a frightened little person inside - I feel for you.


Clanad - 'He was suddenly, for the first time in eternity... alone' - like humans? Like me? How do we survive . . .

On another point, as you are taking the bible scripture so literally - if god cannot look upon sin, I am curious;

1. In the beginning was god - omnipotent and omnipresent
2. God exists in the future, past and present
3. God creates a world which he knows will contain evil and sin
4. God creates sin and evil.


Furthermore

5. God knows he will have to sacrifice jesus
6. God creates the world thus anyway
7. God deliberately wanted to sacrifice jesus
8. Jesus dies because of god
9. Why the guilt trip for us?

Simplistic but I'm tired.

[Clanad]

Hmmm... El D.... you know... you're right!  I've just been made a convert to your atheism.  Now, please enlighten me.  I'm going to visit some terminally ill patients in the hospital tomorrow.  I need some words of comfort and hope to take to them.  Please give me something I can take to them.  Of course, it would be nice if you could provide some basis for your tender and caring insights.  Thanks, I just know you'll come through on this...

On the other hand.... could it be that in order to have love reciprocated, Omniscient G-d created angelic beings and, later, humankind to have perfect freewill?  Freedom to make any choice... even the choice not to return a perfect love?  And, in knowing this freewill would be perverted make a sure and certain way to re-establish the severed relationship?  Call me silly, but that sounds, well... G-d like to me.  Not something I would do as a creator.  I would certainly make it so those stupid createds would do exactly as I wanted... End of problem...

[blinkyblinky]

Welcome Clanad

Nice to hear you've joined our little gang.

Seriously though, the opposite of "christian" doesn't necessarily entail some kind of empty, amoral, comfortless atheism. I'm not a christian, but I wouldn't describe myself as an atheist. I still feel the beauty of the world, the importance of good against evil, the mystery of creation and the human heart and the importance of finding the right path through this life we've been given. Don't assume christians have a monopoly on these things.

I hope one day you can give up your story and come to a deeper, truer and closer relationship with God/life/nature/the universe....(the name is not important).

Facing terminally ill people is difficult, but when I've done so I've instinctively tried to reassure them, to remind them that they are not alone, that what they face we all must face. Everyone in the future and everyone in the past - we all must return to where we came from (whatever "non-life" is).

Having been faced with the prospect of my own death a couple of times, that feeling of aloneness was the hardest thing to take - the feeling that you are jumping off and everyone else is moving on without you.

Good luck.

[mimififi]

Clanad: Thank you for your reply....I am grateful for your support.

Also, having been faced with my 'mortatlity' last January when my daughter was born, I can kinda understand what its like being on the 'other side'. I had lost lots and lots of blood and also had septaceamia (sp) which is not a great combo. Baby was in SCUBU and I wasn't conscious enough to worry about not seeing her. I got moved to the ICU and a few days, several pints of blood and platelets and copious anti b's later, I was awake to start whining about being with my baby....
I wad scared. scared that I might be leaving 5 children motherless, in states of semi consciousness waking briefly to see if i were still alive, worrying that my mum might tell me off for causing such a nuisance (silly isnt it the things that go through your head.) worrying that I hadnt put the christmas decorations away, and every time i woke up, cross that God might be calling me home when I didnt feel ready. I was in a quandry because I really wanted to go to meet my maker, but I was aware of needing to be here too.
Notice, never at any time during this wake sleep illness did I feel alone. God was right there holding my hand, and even now (in fact babes and I saw our consultant just last week for our check up and he said to me as he does every time we see him..."I'm still amazed youre here mrs T".)I believe it to be God's healing as to my safety and my and baby's complete and full recovery.

Clanad, if I were terminally ill and you were coming to see me, I'd want you to bring me God's promises and his steadfast love.

El D I feel sorry for you, for you are "terminally ill", and you don't even realise.

[mimififi]

P.S the first time I got to see baby, they took me on the bed (very cool!). She was so tiny!
It was in fact 12th night when I saw her, and so we called her Tifaine. (French girl's forname version of Tiffany). Which means Epiphany; the time the wise men came to visit Jesus. Cool Huh?

P.P.S Clanad; your post to El D, made me laugh off my head!!!

[El D]

SIgh -another logical refutation . . . I was expecting something slightly better from you.

Terminally ill people are going to die. Personally I would not base my worldview on the way in which I comfort these people. Inability to deal with death is an inability to deal with life, mortality being a common afliction of all living beings. It's not like it should take us by surprise. We all die, I am reconciled to that fact. All my friends, my family, everyone I ever knew is going to die. We are all part of a great cycle of life and death on this planet, as I write this thousands of people are dying, thousands are being born. I find it strangely comforting.

As for your counselling technique, I pity those people if you cannot support them without reference to your faith. I suppose it depends on how good your interpersonal skills are. The vast majority of professional counsellors don't refer to it, and yet somehow they manage. I suggest you look into it.

Actually you make a illogical leap in your reasoning regarding freewill, (aside from actually ignoring the points I make) not the first not the last I imagine. Being that god is omnipresent, why would he initiate a system where the relationship was destroyed? It is obvious, is it not, that he did not want a perfect relationship? Therefore god did not want everyone to sit beside him in heaven. Therefore he wanted some to burn in hell. This makes god less than perfect to a rational being.

[blinkyblinky]

Mimififi, nice story, and you must be one hell of a mum to be able to post on this site at 7.40 in the morning. What do you do - tie up your kids in the morning while you surf the net?

(I'm guessing you're in the states, right?)

Anyway, as regards not feeling alone - I envy you, it must be very nice to be a christian, hindu, muslim... and have that crutch to lean on when the *%@* hits the fan...

[blinkyblinky]

Can I just ask any christians out there a favour? Would any of you consider giving up your place in heaven and letting a poor sinner take it, in exchange for my seat in hell? It would be a very loving, selfless, compassionate act, to sacrifice yourself for the sake of a fellow human, the ultimate christian act in fact.

Also, mimififi, you say that non-christian babies won't be condemned to hell... but I'm still left wondering why those non-christian babies are blessed like that to an eternity in paradise, whereas other babies might be cursed to grow to adulthood, in Bombay (for example), hear about christianity, reject it (because of course it's not part of their culture) and thereby go to hell? It does seem a bit of a lottery...

Also, God is all powerful and omniscient. He made me. He also made the part of my personality that rejects christianity (didn't he?) So he made me reject christianity. So he condemned me to hell. Where is my free will in all that? Or are you saying that when he made me, he didn't know that I would end up rejecting christianity and thereby go to hell? If that's true, he's not omniscient, right?

[mimififi]

Hi Blinky, I'm in the Uk, west sussex! Tieing the kids up is an excellent idea, hehehehehe. I post while Im feeding. I hate sitting doing nothing!

I don't have all the answers to your complicated questions. All I know is that God loves us all and he loves you very much. I know that sounds trite, but it is the only answer I have. He made you able to choose him, so yes in a sense he made you able to not choose him too which could be considered a flaw in his character. The way i look at it is like a marriage. Sometimes I have to still consciously choose christ and his teaching because I am humna nad I don't understand God's plans sometimes and sometimes things don't make sense to me, but to me I know that he knows more than me and so I guess there is also a submission which comes from humilty.

God made us able to choose. If you were to marry someone, would you want to them to marry you because they had been made too and didn't know any better, or would you want them to marry you because they chose you, because they made a choice to love you even when they didn't agree with your thinking????

IGod didn't create us to be his forced creations; he created us to be his children and to have a relationship with him out of our choice.

I get the hunch that you're searching blinky, I hope you find your heart's desire. I have found mine and Its great. (yup feeding time again, and now it's time to go to playschool get the other one.....ciou ciau)

[Clanad]

Ah... ElD... how ironic that you accuse me of illogical reasoning... look at your own post.  You make the leap from "God creates a world in which He knows sin and evil will exist" to "God creates sin and evil."  One doesn't equate to the other... but then I would never expect you to accede to this.

I've been on the AB for about a year now.  When I first started, you were El deurino, if memory serves. In numerous forums we've debated back and forth. (One ran for over 600 entries). Usually, the debate is terminated when you begin one of your rants.  I also notice that, you used to engage in forums other than "religious" ones.  You provided well reasoned and generally balanced points of view.  That all ceased and the only time you show up now is as one of "the usual suspects".  I find that interesting.

I recall, early on (I think when Merlin was still around) your expansive explanation of the Fatima occurrences and was impressed at how knowledgable you were.  I assumed, and mentioned that you were probably Roman Catholic.  I especially noted this later, when your inexplicable animus became apparent. You responded that wasn't the case.  The point being, most of the other responders in these types of discussions (such as blinkyblinky) have input that is reasoned and considerate of others opinions.  But you are really focused on attempting (mainly through intimidation) to destroy any opponent representing "the other side".  You've been uncharacteristically muted so far... Anyway... it would be interesting to know the real story behind your hatred of anything relating to Christians.

Contd.