My God, My God, why have you forsaken me ?

[mfewell]

Words from the cross by Christ. Can I add a tilt to them. They are supposed to be a fulfillment of the OT, but what if, when Christ uttered them from the cross, that they were more than that and utterly true, i.e. God the Father had momentarily forsaken his son ? Imagine for a moment that Christ in hanging there did indeed take all the badness of all time on his shoulders ? Can you imagine a pain any worse and a love any higher ? Just a thought, but by heck it sticks with me.

[Clanad]

Contd.

You often refer to your superior reasoning and reliance on fact... yet you never present any for discussion. It appears you're and other atheist/agnostics view of life is, you're born, you consume, you procreate, you die... end of story.  Sorry, but I find that really dismal.  And, you've never explained satisfactorily why every culture and every person has a recognition of some god within them.  This can't be relegated to only 'being and knowing only what you are taught' as a child.  To many have either left faith or come to it without that interference.  Well, I must be at or near 2000 characters again.  Have a day of your choice!

[Jude123]

I've just left this prayer I was given on another thread. It doesn't belong to any religion only to any that the person saying it wants it to. It was spoken by a person who was terminally ill.

Here I am...

Just as I am...

Be with me,

And all those I love,

Today and always.

So does it matter what you believe in as long as it helps you get through your life.

[Clanad]

Blinkyblinky, you certainly deserve an answer...

The thing to understand, in my view, when considering your question to mimififi about the Hindu in Mumbai rejecting Christ, is that he will achieve or not, his version of the desired afterlife, solely by his actions.  That is, all, every one, of the other "religions" in the world are performance based.  That, I suppose, is fine if one can define the minimum level of "goodness" one has to achieve in order to enter in to Nirvana or other version of heaven.  However, I can clearly demonstrate that Christianity alone, is firstly, not a religion, but a relationship.  Secondly, that relationship, thank you Jesus, is not based on my performance, but His.  I sincerely desire to be "good", but it's to bring honor to God, not assure my place in paradise.  Additionally, it's generally overlooked that the relationship is supremely beneficial for the here and now, not just later.

Lastly, just how do you explain the evidence for the existence of Jesus?  It is pretty overwhelming... so much so that at the end of the 19th century, scholars such as Bultmann and others declared that Jesus had never really existed.  Yet here we are, over 100 years later and Bultmann and cohorts have been thoroughly discredited... not by believers but by other scholars.  Voltaire said he would bury Christianity by his reasoning abilities.  Yet 25 years after his death, the first Geneva Bible Society published and printed it's first Bible in his house.  So... what do you do with this man the world calls Jesus of Nazareth?

[El D]

Well - I must sincerely apologise if anyone finds logical deduction intimidating. Indeed you are correct that my range of answers has diminished - mainly due to a reduction in my free time. This has necessitated a concentration on topics which I find more interesting - though I am touched you noticed. I still do post on other topics completely void of religious debate. Do you find that interesting too?

I was actually banned for one of my answers in the distant past hence my change of identity, and today I would like to think I rant less and reason more. However, when I do present logical deduction, it is either scoffed at and ignored or some emotional guilt trip is thrown my way. I do not seek to destroy people, I merely have never received a satisfactory and logically cohesive answer to the vast majority of my posts questioning the organised religion of xstianity. As you have pointed out previously, AB is not really the place for detailed debate and so when points go unanswered I normally lose interest. As for intimidation, I have already been told I will burn in a lake of fire forever - gees if that isn't intimidating I don't know what is.

I do enjoy our little verbal jousting. Less bible references (I was under the impression you viewed the bible as fallable) and more reasoning would be good though. You are obviously intelligent, and yet you never use it to question your presuppositions. Your insistence on using the Hebrew names for the trinity makes me think you feel a special relationship with them - I would suggest you forego your emotional needs and consider what it is you are a part of as objectively as possibly. I realise of course, that you will likely never change your mind but as long as you start asking the right questions my work is done.

[Jude123]

It's a shame though that people who have just a 'sentence' to say and are not as articulate as some are ignored.

[Clanad]

Jude, it wasn't until I re-read your post that I actually saw the question at the bottom.  Your view(s) are certainly valued.  Your question, however goes to the heart of the matter being discussed.  My view is that it matters immensely what you believe.  Take for example the prayer you quote.  My take on it is this; the line reading "Be with me" and the one reading "Today and always" implies something larger than the one speaking it .  I have to assume the speaker isn't talking to the bedside friend.  Implicit in the utterance is something "other".  Outside of oneself  would be a good description.  So, that being said, what is it outside of oneself that can be with the dying one and his/her loved ones today and always?  And that, my friend,  to be sincerely believed, has to be answered.

I think it has to be based on two types of evidence, one for the head and one for the heart.  "The heart can only believe what the head can concieve", I've heard it said.  If the factual, intellectual knowledge doesn't support what the heart wants to believe, then one finds themselves in a quandry.  I believe I can demonstrate, contrary to ElD's supposition, that the evidence for God and His Son, Jesus is firm enough in quantity and quality to at least demand a verdict.  Examined carefully enough, in my humble opinion, it can only lead to one conclusion... but that's the heart of the matter isn't it?...

[Jude123]

Clanad thank you for your response. Like I said I'm not very articulate, just a simple person who, although not a Christian, I believe I live what I consider to be a 'christian' life. I am at the moment attending an Alpha course and it is in no way converting me. All I can say I believe is that there probably was a man called Jesus but am not convinced about the powers he is said to have had. I find some of the other people's views about prayer and their explanations of God's answers to their prayers just coincidence and sometimes laughable.(Sorry if that upsets anybody). So does the way I think condemn me to hell even though I'm not a believer.You may ask why do I go on this course, well my only answer is curiosity. I have an interest in all races and creeds and I respect peoples beliefs if that is what helps them live their lives.

Thankyou for reading this.

[mimififi]

Hi Jude, I read your post.

I think God meets us where we are. He knows us all intimately, sometimes better than we know ourselves. He knows our struggles, our weaknesses and our triumphs and strengths. He knows everything about us.

I think, no matter what our struggles are, if we choose to meet God and to follow him, and we take just one step close to him, he will run the rest of the way and bridge any gap, any size. When one turns to Christ and 'converts' there life, I don't believe that everything becomes perfect, sometimes, things can get worse. I don't believe that when we turn to Christ, suddenly we understand everything about God and his thinking. There are things that we have to 'work' through once we become a Christian.

I do believe however, that 'living a Christian life' is not really a compromise. Scripture tells us that if you are not for him, you are against him. There can't be a luke warm.
It's great that you're doing an Alpha course, but I have done two. the first one I did, I didn't really gel with the people or the text, in hindsight, I think I was also inwardly petulant and just didn't really want to have my mind changed. I wasn't being as open minded as I was letting on (Not that that is the case with you, I don't mean that that is you, just that that was me.) The second one I did was shortly after I lost a baby and I can tell you I was pretty angry with the whole world and everything in it and just about every thing to do with God and any other gods you wished to name. But on that course, God really met with me, and really dealt with my grief and now I can only regret the years gone before that I didn't know him in. (more)

[mimififi]

But I now live a life where I know the past is no more, as Clanad pointed out, "as far from the east is from the west." I am a new and complete creation in him and I no longer search for anything at all. I feel so safe, and when I do grieve, I do so with a comforter.

I often sing a song which have the lines in "Soften my heart, lord, from all indifference, set me apart, to seek your compassion, to kneel at your feet, soften my heart, make me complete." I wander if these words are for you. (please, don't take offence if they are not, It is not my intention to hurt your feelings.)
Good luck with the course Jude, which ever road you take, I shall be thinking of you.

[Jude123]

Thank you mimififi. I don't take offence at anything you have said. I thank you for your good wishes. Perhaps I want something to believe in, I don'tknow, but I don't feel I'm striving for anything. I will complete my course and whatever happens I will have met some more good people, and I know there are more good people in this world than bad. When I said I live a 'christian' life I meant I tried to be kind to people and treat them as I would like to be treated and I am not a criminal and I abide by the laws of the land. Not a 'christian' life with a capital C. I dont mean to be offensive in saying it like that. Anyway, thank you again for replying, it is good to get other peoples views which I really do respect.

[Clanad]

Jude123, I find you quite articulate... so don't concern yourself with that aspect.  Firstly, I live in America so it's possible that my views on belief and the nature of G-d are different, at least in some aspects, from those you've experienced in your part of the world.  By that, I mean, Europe and the U.K. are predominantly either Roman Catholic or Church of England.  I'm neither, by the way.  The closest we have here to the Church of England is probably the Episcopal Church.  But regardless, the big difference, in my view, is one of Bible acceptance and inerrancy.  The Roman Catholic church places equal emphasis on Tradition and Scripture (none of this is a criticism, understand) whereas Martin Luther (I'm not Lutheran  either) said it quite well in his phrase Sola Scriptura! (Scripture alone or only).  I've said before, that while the large, mainline denominations are shrinking, the experiential denominations are literally exploding around the world... especially in Africa and South America.  I believe this is because people desperately want to see a change in their lives and want to see G-d active in their everyday existance.  Here in the U.S. there are numerous churches with memberships of over 20,000 people.  One in Houston, Texas we attend whenever possible has over 30,000 and growing.  The message is simple, profound and Biblically based...  G-d isn't mad at you, loves you beyond what we can understand and wants to bless you more than you can think or imagine.

Contd.

[Clanad]

Contd.

So... the liturgical based churches have less and less to offer a jaded world.  Kind of "been there, done that" mentality.  As opposed to seeing people healed by the laying on of hands, seeing people delivered from oppression by the simple calling on the Name, as was done in the early days of the New Testament Church, seeing a close, personal relationship with the Holy Spirit by speaking in tongues...

But, I believe, you'll come to a point in your searching, as mimififi says, that a recognition of truth begins to dawn.  For some it has in immediacy, for others it's kinda of like, "Oh, I get it" with a sudden thirst to know more of who Yeshua really is.  I can but relate my own experience...

Have a really good evening!

[Jude123]

Thanks again Clanad you sound a very well read person and I appreciate your interest. Who's to say what will happen when I have finished this course. If you are around on AB when I have I will tell you my feelings then.

Best Wishes.

[mimififi]

i go to a Free church In uk but I come from a baptist background.  The church I'm in now is pretty evangelical and most services are spirit led, which in my 'Britishness!" i find a little hard sometimes, but that's only because I don't always feel like stepping out of my confort zone and going full on.  ( I have been known to be a bit too English at times.)  But I really love being a part of such a diverse group of people who worship in all sorts of ways, but always true to themselves.  There is a big church near me in south Uk where the band Delirious? lead the worship sometimes, but I'm afraid it's a bit too big for me so I go to a similar one that's a bit smaller.  But You know Jude, it's ok, on this earth, it's horses for courses, God loves great variety (within the realms of scriptural truth of course) just look at the way he created the world!  So, there will always be a plac for everyone somewhere.  Good luck Jude, it'll be cool if you let us know how you got on.  I'll keep checking this post.  mimiXX

[Jude123]

Ok Mimi will let you know! Bye

[blinkyblinky]

Clanad, accepting that there was a real historical figure called Jesus doesn't get us far, does it. Also, whether christianity is a religion or a relationship doesn't enhance or diminish christianity or other religions. And I'm still wondering about the lottery aspect of christianity. Like Jude, I'm quite uneasy about the idea that good, loving, compassionate people will suffer eternal agony in hell because they declined to become a member of your club - in fact this thought really is repugnant and, in my heart, I know it's utterly unjust and false. (For me it's hypothetical because I don't really believe in an afterlife - but no less a repugnant idea for that.)

Also, you desire to be good not to get to heaven but to honour God? So if God decided to change the rules and send people to hell for honouring him, you'd still carry on honouring him? This seems doubtful. For me, christianity (like most other religions and human activities) is based on an ultimately selfish desire - the desire to get one's self into heaven. To quote your own words: "People want to see a change in their lives and want to see God active in their everyday existance." It's all about what people want, not what is true or false. Which is why I asked if any christians out there would consider giving me their seat in heaven in exchange for my seat in hell. I'm not seriously expecting an offer, I'm just trying to make a point. Now, if Jesus had given his soul to the devil to suffer eternal damnation - that really would be some sacrifice.

[blinkyblinky]

Clanad, you have clever things to say to answer any objection anyone makes - after all, you and your church have had many clever people working throughout the centuries to come up with ingenious solutions to these objections - but I really feel much happier to work these things out for myself rather than be given it on a plate - or rather, in a book. Sometimes, especially in my younger days, it was difficult to live with uncertainty and so many questions. I felt impatient for them to be answered... I'm tempted to say that christianity is ok for some people, because of their personality or whatever - it's right for them to use it to help them live better lives. But another part of me rails against that, and I feel the same as El D - I want to bang your heads together and shout, "It's only a story! None of it's true!" Sometimes I feel the same way about it as I do about anti-depressants. People are sad, becuause there is something wrong in their lives. This is natural. But now, in many cases they simply go to the doctor who gives them drugs to make them feel happy. Therefore people don't get the chance to really look into the heart of the matter and work their way through their problems, to change themselves and their lives for the better. It's a painful process, it may take years, and people are offered an easy quick fix. Pain and uncertainty are unpleasant, and it's too tempting to resist...

After all these years I'm so glad I didn't accept such quick fixes. And Jude, just want to say to you: I'm sure you'll meet some really special people who are christians. They are the salt of the earth, good-hearted great-souled people who really understand human nature and see deeply into the mystery of things and have so much love in their heart for their fellow humans. But you will meet those kinds of people everywhere, in all cultures and social stratum, of every religion, of no religion...

[blinkyblinky]

It's the person who matters, not the religion.

[lefox]

You are all wrong....

There is no such thing as god. There is a higher power with the fundemental belief of good and evil.

Who has actually seen Jesus on the cross?? Noone???

This all may well have happend but we all choose to believe in our own way what the truth is, you could be scared in to a belief which I believe most RCs are being a Roman Catholic myself. I am not any more , but do believe there is a higher power out there

[mimififi]

I don't think anti d's are always a quick fix. Sure, some times they are abused by doctor and patient but some people suffer depression when there is no trigger and nothing particularly wrong in their life. Clinical depression can be a problem with the physical chemistry of one's brain. It is cautionary not to over generalise....

Although, this is another subject. Just felt I needed to make the point.