Verifying Something Using The Internet

[Hymie]

Often I see something in the news, or something I read, or something on-line that I question whether it is correct/accurate.

 

The internet allows me to quickly verify the validity or otherwise of the ‘something’, often starting with google, which may take me to Wikipedia or any number of other authoritative sources, which will invariably concur with each other, allowing me to determine whether the ‘something’ is correct/accurate, or that I was right to question it.

 

In a recent thread on AB, I stated that income tax is a progressive tax – that results in the poor paying less tax.

 

As an example, someone in the UK earning £12k per year would pay no income tax at all, whereas someone earning £24k a year would pay 20% tax on £12k = £2,400 (10% of their total earnings).  And with a 40% tax rate on earnings over ~£50k, someone earning £100k per year would pay around £27,600 a year in income tax (nearly 30% of their total earnings).

 

In that thread, both TTT and youngmafbog claimed that I was wrong about income tax being a progressive tax.

youngmafbog even wrote //Hahahaha, from one of the people on this site with zero financial acumen demonstrated time and time again by absolutley garbage posts//

 

You can check out the internet yourself to see who is correct; TTT and youngmafbog or Hymie and the rest of the world.

 

Of course TTT and youngmafbog would be in line for a Nobel economics prize if they wrote a paper proving what everyone in economics believed to be correct – showing it to be wrong; maybe AB could sponsor them in this endeavour, gaining International recognition.

 

https://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/News/Question1876302-2.html

[Canary42]

Hymie, Wiki is often inaccurate, although I would tend to back it against the two protagonists to whom you refer.

[davebro3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_tax

[Old_Geezer]

A lot of text to state that income tax rises according to ability to pay. Of course it does. I think you must be feeling a little miffed this morning.

[barry1010]

Wiki is not to be relied on but the links it references may be

[ToraToraTora]

I never mentioned "progressive" anything. All I said was that most income tax is paid by basic rate tax payers and the abolition of it would give the choice to the person concerned to decide what to spend it on and thus pay the associated tax. Hymie you should really read what people write rather than digest what you seem to falsely distil on the initial parse.

[ToraToraTora]

Income tax was originally a temporary measure brought in in the early 19th century to help fight the Napoleonic wars, it was initally and outragious 10%.

In your example the person has £2400 taken straight off the top and the rest he spends ans pays tax on. I just suggest giving him the full £24k, hs'll still spend that and pay tax on it. The tax take is more or less the same for the country and we won't need the inland revenue so we can save billions on that.

Direct taxation is a political weapon beloved of the left so they can keep the lowest earners down as they are, innexplicably, their voting base.

[Hymie]

In the linked post (in my original post above) TTT was arguing that income tax should be abolished to help the poor; he also claimed that direct taxes account for a fraction of the total taxation.

 

Well, income tax and national insurance accounts for nearly 50% of the government’s total tax revenue.

 

TTT also claimed that most of the direct tax is paid by basic rate tax payers, again not true.

The bottom 50% of tax payers, pay around 25% of the total direct tax.

 

I don’t think TTT will be winning that Nobel prize in economics anytime soon.

[ToraToraTora]

^^^^ what is your source for those figures?

[Hymie]

Besides not being much cop at economics, TTT appears to have a very limited ability to find even the most basic information on the www.

 

For the benefit of TTT, the sources of my information (as always are those lefty 5C commie types); the Institute for Fiscal Studies and the UK parliament library.

 

 

https://ifs.org.uk/taxlab/taxlab-key-questions/where-does-government-get-its-money

 

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8513/

[ToraToraTora]

The figures are irrelevant anyway, I am talking about the principle. If you give someone all their money they get to choose what to spend it on. The government still get the tax it just comes from another source. That's the primary point that you seem unable to grasp.

[THECORBYLOON]

HYMIE, I found that Briefing Paper too and wrote this before seeing your link.

In this House of Commons Briefing Paper issued in May this year and titled, “Tax statistics: an overview:” it looked at income and the tax paid in the 2020/21 tax year.

It shows the bottom 50% of income earners contributed 25.5% of income. When it comes to income tax paid by that same group, they contributed 9.5% of the total collected.

I doubt the proportion claimed by TORATORATORA has risen to that much in the period since 2020/21.

 

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8513/

[THECORBYLOON]

"The figures are irrelevant anyway, I am talking about the principle."

Your claim was wrong but "The figures are irrelevant anyway"??????

The evidence is, "irrelevant " only because it didn't support your claim.

Is evidence, "relevant" only if it supports your particular viewpoint?

[Hymie]

If you give everyone all their earned money (no income tax or NI) and get taxes from other sources such as VAT, sales tax etc, then the poorly paid will pay the same rate of tax as the highly paid (and could pay more if certain goods such as food are highly taxed).

 

But if the highly paid, pay a greater percentage of their income as income tax, then they will pay a higher rate of over all tax (as happens in the UK and most countries where they have such a progressive tax system).

 

But I suppose the above is beyond TTT’s comprehension.

[ToraToraTora]

It's all percentages anyway so richer people buy more stuff and pay more tax. 20% of a super yacht is a lot more than 20% of a pair of trainers. They also employ people so those people have money to spend and pay tax. Rich people don't pay income tax anyway. Instead of foaming at the mouth calm down and think it through.

[Hymie]

A poor person buying an expensive pair of trainers costing £100 (before tax) would pay £20 tax (20%).  The rich person buying a yacht for £100,000 (before tax) would pay 20,000 in tax (20%) – both the rich and poor paying the same tax rate.

 

But with a progressive tax system (as in the UK), the poorest paid 50% only pays 25% of the collected tax, and the highest paid 50% pays the other 75% - no wonder TTT wants income tax and NI abolished.

[ToraToraTora]

the percentage is "progressive" anyway there is no need to have different rates. Rich people avoid almost all income tax anyway.

[youngmafbog]

Did you read what I wrote at all?

I said nothing about 'progressive' one way or another.

This is simply a post to have a dig at two ABers, as shown by the first post from Canary.

And yes I did write //Hahahaha, from one of the people on this site with zero financial acumen demonstrated time and time again by absolutley garbage posts// 

Its true and refers to many of your posts or cant you comprehend that?

 

[Hymie]

How is a flat rate of tax progressive?

 

If rich people avoid almost all income tax, how come the top 50% pays 75% of the tax bill?

[youngmafbog]

I see no appology for accusing me of things I didnt do.

[Hymie]

After I wrote // Direct taxes (such as income tax) are progressive in reducing income inequality; so I guess TTT wanting such a tax regime abolished (as a self-declared millionaire), he does approve of the poor paying more tax.//

 

youngmafbog replied // Hahahaha, from one of the people on this site with zero financial acumen demonstrated time and time again by absolutley garbage posts.//

 

So in your and TTT’s opinion, direct taxes are not progressive in reducing income inequality – as I later posted, it’s TTT and you against Hymie and the rest of the world; who do you think is correct?