Drinking Shandy At A Wedding

[feebee102]

Afternoon.
Quick question. I have worked for over 11 year in a pub and have always served over 16 year olds a shandy as the Licencing act of 2003 states .......Under 18? Adults are not allowed to buy alcohol on behalf of under 18's in a licensed premises. In the new licensing laws, the only exception is for 16 or 17 year olds who are allowed to drink beer, wine or cider at a meal out with adults (but they may not buy the alcohol themselves).. At the weekend we attended a wedding. On the night we where sat with my 16 year old son eating our buffet food when one of the security lot came over and snatched my sons shandy away stating he wasn't old enough. I never caused a scene as I didnt want to spoil the evening. Am I right or does each venue have their own rules.

[janbee]

It seems like a bit of an over-reaction. I don't think there was anything wrong with it as he was in the company of his parents at a private function.

[hc4361]

It is legal for a 16 year old to drink beer, wine and cider bought for him by an adult with a meal on licensed premises.

[hc4361]

Actually, could it make a difference that it was buffet meal and not a sit down, served at the table meal?

The law does state 'table meal'.

[BlackadderV]

One for the lawyers here. Does a buffet constitute a meal? I don't know.

[feebee102]

But we where sat at a table !!!

[BlackadderV]

Beat me to it, hc.

[Hopkirk]

I think I would have informed the security man that he was out of order and to wind his neck in.

If he refused I would have asked to speak to the duty manager.

[feebee102]

I might add it was a very weak shandy. Security seem to take a very heavy handed approach all night. It was a very calm night, no trouble makers. Later the bar manager also came up and said to him " Your not old enough for that" reffering to his Red Bull. They obviously thought it was a larger or something. We all stated it was a Red Bull but she promptly took it off him & sniffed it. Then put it back down stating she had made a mistake. No sorry's or apollogies.

[hc4361]

It's the definition of table meal that counts. To my mind that means being seated at a table properly laid with cutlery and condiments and being served at the table.

[feebee102]

I am trying to get my facts right before I phone up the venue to complain. We where thinking of holding my daughters wedding there but have since changed our minds.

[BlackadderV]

I have a sneaking suspicion that the answer may well depend on the definition of what constitutes a meal. Many pubs, especially on Sunday mornings, put free snacks: cheese, pickles, roast potatoes &c on the bar, but if you took a handful and went back to your seat, could you really call that a meal?

[hc4361]

What sort of venue was it?

[kvalidir]

We had crazy bar staff at a wedding reception we were at recently- who told us to our faces that we had been ' identified as a problem element'- because someone at our table was a bit merry and chucked a sausage roll at his mate. The bar troll came over and picked up all of our drinks and sniffed them, got her horrible snout right over the glass and I asked for a fresh drink as I didn't want her breathing all over it. She confiscated someone's drink who was 22. She declined to give either of us another drink, we asked to see the manager, got a lot of huffing and fudging, complained about her manners and her attitude and I grudgingly got another drink after about 20 minutes of arguing. Some people are bat *** crazy and don't deserve people's custom.

[Buenchico]

The Alcoholic Liquor Duties Act 1979 (as amended) states:
>“Beer” includes ale, porter, stout and any other description of beer, and any liquor which is made or sold as a description of beer or as a substitute for beer and which is of a strength exceeding 0.5 per cent<

A court would almost certainly rule that, for the purposes of the relevant legislation, shandy is sold 'as a substitute for beer'.

The Licensing Act 2003 states:
>“beer” has the same meaning as in the Alcoholic Liquor Duties Act 1979 <

Ergo, the sale or supply of shandy (as usually mixed in bars) is subject to exactly the same legislation that the sale or supply of beer is (because it would typically have an ABV of around 2%).

However the type of shandy which is sold in cans in newsagent's shops isn't covered by licensing legislation because it has an ABV of under 0.5%. (It's typically about 0.2%). In a bar such a product would probably be called 'lemonade and a dash', rather than 'shandy'.

So selling or supply shandy (other than where it's actually 'lemonade and a dash') to anyone under 18 years of age is an offence.

[BlackadderV]

You do not give a reference for the new licensing laws so I am unable to look it up. However, I would be surprised if the relevant act did not clarify the legal definition of a meal. That's why parliamentary draftsmen are very well paid.

[janecandoitall]

I thought it was' a substantial meal' but its open to interpretation, however it is up to the licence holder to decide and they ultimately have the right to refuse to serve anyone. That said, you could have been given the opportunity to drink it! Bit heavy handed I think for a private function.

[hc4361]

It is The Licensing Act 2003 s.149 (5) (d)

[EDDIE51]

The law is clear on this, I am a personal license holder.
Shandy if it is made with beer counts as an alcoholic drink . The beer itself is alcoholic at 3 to 5 % alcohol. The fact that you mixed the beer with lemonade does not change the fact that you sold beer for consumption by a person under 18. The same could apply to a wine spritzer or a 'snowball' for example. The only legal way an under 18 can be served with shandy is if the drink is sold ready mixed as 'shandy' like the old Top Deck shandy that I have not seen for years!.
To make it clear it is the drink as it comes out of the pump/bottle that counts as to if it is alcoholic or not. Mixing it with a non alcoholic drink does not change that.
If you have worked in a pub for 11 years and served shandy made at the bar to under 18s you have been breaking the law and are liable to a maximum £50,000 fine and 6 months in prison for each offence. The premises supervisor for your pub is liable as well as it is their job to ensure that the law is complied with even if they personally are not on the premises.
The prime reason for the alcohol laws of this country is
' The protection of children and those under 18'
that is the first thing you are taught when you go on a course to become a licence holder

[hc4361]

Eddie, 16 and 17 year olds are allowed to drink beer, wine and cider when eating a 'table meal' and accompanied by an adult.

The question is - is a buffet a 'table meal'?

[Buenchico]

What the law actually say about 'table meals':

4)A person (“the relevant person”) commits an offence if
(a)he buys or attempts to buy alcohol for consumption on relevant premises by an individual aged under 18 . . . .

(5)But subsection (4) does not apply where
(a)the relevant person is aged 18 or over,
(b)the individual is aged 16 or 17,
(c)the alcohol is beer, wine or cider,
(d)its purchase or supply is for consumption at a table meal on relevant premises, and
(e)the individual is accompanied at the meal by an individual aged 18 or over.

“table meal” means a meal eaten by a person seated at a table, or at a counter or other structure which serves the purpose of a table and is not used for the service of refreshments for consumption by persons not seated at a table or structure serving the purpose of a table.