lost football

[chas2008]

sensible answers only !! and no moralising on the rights on wrongs of kids playing football.
My grandson (11) and a couple of friends were playing football on a green area not in the street, when they managed to kick the ball over a fence, as you do, and lets be honest most of us did us kids.
From what i gather it was the 1st time it happened its not like a regular occurance, the woman is refusing to give the ball back, does this count as theft ??
just interested..........

[Duncer]

She must return it.

.....and yes, we all did it as kids. I remember to this day which gardens gave us the ball back with a smile and which of the neighbours gave us a rollicking.

[doctordb]

It certainly counts as miserable.

[daffy654]

It may be the first time your grandson and his mates have kicked a ball over this fence, i'd bet it isn't the first time the householder has had footballs land in her garden though!

Try and get your local PCSO to go round and ask the lady to return the ball.

[boxtops]

I don't think it counts as theft - balls in my garden are for me to dispose of as I wish, but if this is the first time, common decency tells me to throw them back over the fence.

Bear in mind that this might be the first time your son's ball has gone over, but she might have to put up with it with other kids doing it too.

[Duncer]

I agree that the woman may have suffered previously, and it is annoying, but I think you will find that legally she does not have the right to keep it, nor does she have the right to dispose of it as she wishes.

[boxtops]

I wouldn't like to be certain :-)

[flip_flop]

Are you serious daffy? Getting a plastic policeman involved just over a wayward football. We are told they provide a valuable service, so I'd hope they had more important and pressing matters to be dealt with.

I don't imagine for a moment she is entitled to keep the ball - if somebody inadvertantly parked their car on my land, I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean the car is mine to dispose of as I see fit, but I am, of course, more than happy to be educated if my guess is wrong.

[joggerjayne]

Yes, it's theft.

Part of the definition of theft is to treat an item in a way that is inconsistent with the rights of the owner.

Retaining possession against the wishes of the owner falls into that definition, so yes ... she is committing theft.

[chas2008]

thats what i thought, just want to be armed with the correct info before someone goes knocking on doors...

[Messi_Ten]

If they didn't give us the ball back, we used to wait until it was dark and put their windows in!

[New Judge]

Although she cannot keep it (for it would indeed be theft), she does not have to return it (why should she have to go out of her way to do so?). And neither does she have to give permission for anybody to enter her property to retrieve it.

Just how these situations are solved when intransigence prevails I don't know.

[CailinDeas]

Please ponder on this.... One afternoon, some time ago, I was happily weeding my flower bed, situated just inside my eight foot garden wall. A stray football came over and hit my head hard. No permanent damage ensued, but I dread to think what the result might have been. I was alone at the time and I wondered how long I might have lain there had the impact been just a little bit stronger.

[lcg]

NJ.....common sense?



......and of course, not being a miserable old......? we would have gone into the garden to get it anyway (at whatever time so she wouldn't have a coronary or a confrontation).

[cathfromsaron]

yes, theft for defo!

comes between stealing by finding and wrongfully retaining blah blah ...

cath x

[paddywak]

Years ago my father had a problem with a particular bunch of kids who played football on the spare ground just jumping the fence to get their ball back and trampling his vegetable plot. One day when I was visiting there was a knock on the door and one of these kids was there asking if they could have the ball back I replied of course he good have it all he had to do was jump the fence and get it like they usually did to which he replied that there wasn't usually a Fluffing wolf in the garden. I replied that they better get used to it because Mum and Dad were going to be looking after my GSD during the day due to a change in my working hours. Strangely enough the kids found a new play ground and the dog had a new toy.

[New Judge]

Yes of course common sense (or "executive action" on the part of the boys) will prevail. I was just exploring the situation from a legal point of view.

The boys have no right to enter the garden. The occupier has no obligation to retrieve the ball and hand it back. She did not take it, she did not put it in her garden. All she would be doing would be to deny the boys access to her garden which she has a perfect right to do. Those rights are not suddenly overridden when the ball enters her property. So long as the ball remains where it is and is not damaged or removed all I can see is stalemate.

It's an interesting problem.

[Trotbot]

NJ, at some point, the householder will almostly walk within touching distance of the ball, or even have to move it. Once it is touched, is there an obligation to at least throw it over the wall (assuming there is no duty of care to ensure it is returned to its lawful owner)?

[joggerjayne]

There IS an obligation to not retain unlawful possession of xomeone else's property.

Imagine this ...

We are at the checkout in a clothes shop.

You put your purse down next to my bag.

I accidentally pick up your purse and put it in my bag.

You point out that I have your purse.

Could I argue that you put your purse down near me, and there is no legal obligation on me to go into my bag and return it to you?

Obviously not.

Same with the ball.

Theft Act s.3(1) defines theft as ... Any assumption by a person of the rights of an owner, and this includes, where he has ... come by the property (innocently or not) without stealing it, any later assumption of a right to it by keeping or dealing with it as owner.

So ...

"coming by property innocently" (someone kicks their ball into your garden)

and

"keeping it" (by refusing to return it)

... is a theft.

There is no law against going into someone's garden uninvited (otherwise it would be a bit tricky when you got a new postman!).

If someone specifically forbids you from entering their garden, then to do so against those specific instructions is a civil trespass, but their instructions would simply aggravate the theft of your ball.

[New Judge]

It's not that straightforward, Jayne.

There is a world of difference between refusing to return an object ("Can I have my ball back?" "No you cannot") and ignoring (or "failing to hear") any request to respond. Many people don't answer their doors to strangers for a number of reasons. If the ball was not readily accessible from the street (say,perhaps, it had gone over a locked side gate) the owner of the ball would have no right to break the lock or climb over to fetch it. The householder has no obligation to open his door and the ball owners only solution would be to call the police (to whom the householder must respond). There was a case in (I think) a Manchester Magistrates' Court four or five years ago which had, as the issue, just that. A ball had gone into an inaccessible garden. The owner repeatedly knocked at the door. The householder refused to respond. Police were called and the householder was eventually charged with theft. (I believe there was some intransigence on behal of the householder who refused to respond to the police). Instead of concentrating on the householder's refusal to respond to the police the prosecution insisted that the householder should have responded to knocks at his door (by the ball's owner) and had committed theft by his refusal to do so. The Magistrates ruled that he had no such obligation and he was acquitted.

Of course this was an unusual case which had a number of unusual characteristics. But it demonstrates that sometimes a court is needed to rule on what seems a straightforward matter when described as you have.

[julia-mag]

I treat this matter slightly differently, years ago when we were plagued with footballs, tennis balls etc coming into the garden (and breaking down prize chrysanths etc.) I refused to give the balls back with the message, please get one of your parents to come and collect it, that way I was able to let the parents know just what trouble 'junior' was causing to us. It worked very very well in our case and soon the trouble disappeared.