Is ignorance bliss?

[naomi24]

Are atheists who point out the glaringly obvious flaws in religion, unkind? Do non-believers have a moral duty to highlight the facts, regardless of the dismay, and possible hurt, they may cause to those who rely upon the prop of religion to get them through life - or is it kinder to say nothing and leave them to their illusions?

This question was put to me recently by an atheist friend.

[andy-hughes]

My take on this would be that anyone who's faith can be shaken, or who is upset or offended by a little rigourous debate either holds a dubious faith, or their strength of faith is somewhat lacking.

As an aetheist, I don;t start religious debates with believers, but will join in if they start one with me.

If people are comforted by a belief in a higher power and an after-life, then fine, who am I to cricitse and denegrate?

If they start the usual "Your life is missing something and I know what it is ..." line, then it's open season.

[WaldoMcFroog]

It's really quite simple.

Stop telling people with whom they may sleep. Stop telling women what they are allowed to do with their bodies. Stop attempting to teach fairy stories as though they were science. Stop telling Africans condoms are evil. Stop blocking medical research that has the potential to cure debilitating and/or fatal diseases. Start treating women as equals. Stop killing other people for believing a different fairy story than yours. Stop blocking environmental programmes that might halt or mitigate against global climate change because you think your sky fairy will make it all better. Stop praying over children when what they need is a doctor. Stop cutting bits of children because your sky fairy told you to. Particularly stop this if you think your sky fairy demands you do it with your teeth. Stop teaching people that they can redeem their families by strapping on a load of explosives and blowing up civillians. Stop interfeering in the Middle East because you believe that the end of the world is a good think.

How's that for starters?

There are more than enough really serious problems that we could spend our time trying to solve without distracting ourselves with ones that are just made up.

If you want to believe your fairy tales, then fine, but don't believe that something you cannot give a shred of convincing evidence for should be allowed to affect anyone else.

[sophie_1003]

I agree with andy, if someone was really religious their faith wouldn't be affected (effected? can never remember which is which) by an atheists remarks. Also, I think your question comes across as rather patronising to people who are religious, you make them out to be some sort of simpletons "is it kinder to...leave them to their illusions?"

[naomi24]

Not patronising, Sophie - frank. There is no proof that religion is based on truth, and therefore belief in something that carries no evidence whatsoever to support it is illusional. What would you call it?

(You were right the first time - it's affected).

[waterboatman]

I don't give a toss what anyone believes, that's up to them, but I do not want them trying to impose their nonsense onto me. Especially when they knock my door to do it!

[chakka35]

My attitude, as a contented atheist, is this:

If people believe as a matter of pure faith then that's fine by me, none of my business. Who am I to rock the boat of their credulity?

But when they start to claim that there is more to their belief than mere blind faith - by claiming, for example, that there is evidence for the existence of their god, or that the Jesus story is based on historical fact - then they enter my world of evidence and reason and they are entitled to be challenged.

Otherwise we allow factual untruth to be promulgated instead of factual truth, and that is wrong, however many people are comforted by that untruth.

[Ankou]

"If people are comforted by a belief in a higher power and an after-life, then fine, who am I to cricitse and denegrate?"

perfect answer andy and i agree completely. i have had jw's knocking at my door and trying to foist their magazine upon me, but i do find them amicable to deal with even if you politely tell them you are not interested. if someone in their belief tells me how i should live my life thats fine, i dont have to agree. we have people telling us what we should and shouldnt be doing all the time, often with ambiguous evidence and nothing to do with religion. thats life, isnit, people wil have their own opinion about how to live and it will always be different to our own.

there is no reply to the ignorant quite like keeping silence.

[sophie_1003]

I would call it belief, I'm not religious but if other people are I wouldn't call their faith an illusion. You could argue that there is no evidence that God doesn't exist but it doesn't make my belief that he doesn't an illusion. I think people who are religious would argue that their beliefs are based on more than scientific evidence, it is what they 'know' to be true rather than something they choose to accept to be true.

[tamborine]

three rules of etiquette, do not discuss:

1. religion
2. politics
3. income

[Lore]

I'm a great believer in fate and spirits (not the alcoholic kind) but I would never make any comments to disrespect the beliefs of others. - regardless of their religion.
I always thought it was a very personal thing so why anyone thinks they have the right to suggest that their way is the right way, is beyond me.

[Verix]

I'm not sure that i'd say religion is an illusion. I think it takes more than an illusion to have the power to blow up buildings at start wars. Humans have turned religion into something very real.

Equally faith has its positive aspects as well so i tend not to try to get in with arguments with people about it but obviously if someone is challenging my beliefs or asking my opinion on it then i'll speak up.

[Lonnie]

Hi naomi, I have to admit, I do love a Theological discussion, preferably face to face, there are so many different relgions, and factions of those religions. I find that facinating, and like to find out first hand, how their views affect their lives. Providing it stays as a discussion.

As for Atheists, there should be no problem with them pointing out the flaws in whatever religion. because a true believer, (and I doubt there are that many of them), should be up for the discussion, and be prepared for whatever the Atheist throws at them.

[naomi24]

Luna, You may believe that ghosts exists, or that life exists on other planets, but belief such as yours is not �faith�. Your beliefs do not affect the way in which you live your life, and neither do they lead you to dictate to others the way in which they should live their lives. You don�t take offence, and you are not hurt by those who have opposing opinions. You simply accept that some people disagree with you. This question isn�t about people who think ghosts, aliens, fairies, the Big Bang, or evolution are probably facts of life - it�s about people who hold profound religious convictions, those who live their whole lives by their chosen creed, and those who retreat into complete and utter denial when presented with the facts.

Waldo, Chakka, et al, I was at a party recently, and the party girl, a devout Christian, in her speech twice thanked �The Lord� for all her friends and for all her blessings. Her happy face was a joy to behold, and at that moment, I could no more have burst her bubble than jump off the roof. This is what brought my atheist friend�s question, which I�ve pondered on and off for a while now, to mind, and this is why I posted it here. When you think about it, it�s a tough call - but then again, maybe it depends on the attitude of the believer. Does it?

I think I agree with Andy when he says If they start the usual "Your life is missing something and I know what it is ..." line, then it's open season.

[naomi24]

Sophie, That�s precisely the point. They might �think� it�s true, but they don�t �know� it is. Nevertheless, they will tell all and sundry that it most definitely is true. I would like to hear what evidence you think they have that is based on �more than scientific evidence�.

Tamborine, don�t discuss religion? Oo-er! The very idea! That would spell the end of this section of AB. It�s what we do here.

Verix, that�s true, but I think we�re talking about the basic concepts of religion here.

Hi Lonnie, me too - but that goes without saying! I have to agree with you. If people of religion enter freely into debate, then they have to accept the consequences.

[chakka35]

tamborine, you're obviously talking about what was once dinner-party etiquette, though the taboo subjects were traditionally Sex, Religion and Politics. The accepted subjects were central-heating, the local schools and the housing market. But, as naomi points out, there's no point in joining AB if you are going to be so inhibited.

What would you want to discuss on the R&S site?
Dominoes? The compexities of Zulu shorthand? The frequency of No 23 in the Lotto? Malapropism among Brummies?

Just let us know and we'll try to find you a suitable site.

[naomi24]

Blimey, Luna - keep your hair on! I never doubted you understood the question. I was simply saying that deep religious conviction can't be compared to other beliefs. My apologies.