ChatterBank2 mins ago
Policeman in Ian Tomlinson trial
I have no connections with the Police whatsoever. But I respect their work and I am appalled that PC Simon Harwood has gone on trial over the death of Ian Tomlinson. From what I saw of the filmed footage, Tomlinson was being a pain by deliberately walking slowly to hold police up during what was an extremerly difficult time for them. He didn't die there and then but some time later, so it wasn't like the push killed him. The push didn't look severe either, so for someone to die as a result of that they must have had other health issues. Seems to me the system has given in to the eer-increasing blame culture in British society today. A decade or so ago and the claims of Tomlinson's loved ones would have been dismissed out of hand, and I hope that's the outcome of this trial. You?
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I agree this case should not have reached the courts, he was in the middle of a riot situation, and unfortunately even if he wasn't rioting, he walked into a situation were one stands the risk of being hurt.
How many times have some pushed the person in front, as the doors have opened on a sale?
Woe betide you if that person happens to also die in those circumstances, so be very very careful the next time Selfridges has a sale.
How many times have some pushed the person in front, as the doors have opened on a sale?
Woe betide you if that person happens to also die in those circumstances, so be very very careful the next time Selfridges has a sale.
Well, I was hoping to illustrate the irony, of the Police ...
(who increasingly rely on CCTV recording to produce evidence where an incident is denied)
(and who are continually asking for more funds for increased CCTV coverage)
... being caught out by some inconvenient video evidence of an incident which they themselves had denied.
Ironic. Or, in this instance ... inane.
Note to self: must make more effort to avoid irrelevant observations.
(who increasingly rely on CCTV recording to produce evidence where an incident is denied)
(and who are continually asking for more funds for increased CCTV coverage)
... being caught out by some inconvenient video evidence of an incident which they themselves had denied.
Ironic. Or, in this instance ... inane.
Note to self: must make more effort to avoid irrelevant observations.
-- answer removed --
-- answer removed --
<<Woe betide you if that person happens to also die in those circumstances, so be very very careful the next time Selfridges has a sale. >>
this wasn't a push on a 'sales melee' - it was a deliberate and aggressive blow delivered against some poor sod who was trying to negotiate police lines to get home from work.
flipnflap - i suggest to you that the police officers who have given evidence against Tomlinson reflect the disgust of the majority of officers for that kind of thuggishness.
Have you not seen the footage of Tomlinson immediately prior to this incident where he assaulted others without good cause?
Have you not read of his dismissal from another force for assault?
The police do a difficult job. To suggest that this means they will occasionally behave like like thugs is an insult to the majority of them.
And btw, if an assault leads to death due to an existing medical condition in the victim e.g 'it was only a punch, not my fault she had a thin skull', British Law does not accept that as a defence.
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this wasn't a push on a 'sales melee' - it was a deliberate and aggressive blow delivered against some poor sod who was trying to negotiate police lines to get home from work.
flipnflap - i suggest to you that the police officers who have given evidence against Tomlinson reflect the disgust of the majority of officers for that kind of thuggishness.
Have you not seen the footage of Tomlinson immediately prior to this incident where he assaulted others without good cause?
Have you not read of his dismissal from another force for assault?
The police do a difficult job. To suggest that this means they will occasionally behave like like thugs is an insult to the majority of them.
And btw, if an assault leads to death due to an existing medical condition in the victim e.g 'it was only a punch, not my fault she had a thin skull', British Law does not accept that as a defence.
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I'm not so sure, triggy.
AOG's point is ...
To what extent, in a public place, could shoving someone (with the intention of "getting them out of the way" rather than specifically harming them) potentially expose the "pusher" to liability for the unexpected consequences.
There are two legal principles.
(1) If it is not foreseeable that a person will suffer any harm, then you are not responsible for their injuries (the "foreseeability" rule).
(2) If it is foreseeable that ANY injury will be sustained, then you remain responsible, even if the extent of the injury is more serious than you could have foreseen (the "eggshell skull" rule).
(Sorry to add another inane post to this thread. I'll go away now.)
AOG's point is ...
To what extent, in a public place, could shoving someone (with the intention of "getting them out of the way" rather than specifically harming them) potentially expose the "pusher" to liability for the unexpected consequences.
There are two legal principles.
(1) If it is not foreseeable that a person will suffer any harm, then you are not responsible for their injuries (the "foreseeability" rule).
(2) If it is foreseeable that ANY injury will be sustained, then you remain responsible, even if the extent of the injury is more serious than you could have foreseen (the "eggshell skull" rule).
(Sorry to add another inane post to this thread. I'll go away now.)
-- answer removed --
I suspect that if the police in the past had been less able and keen to cover up misdeeds by their own then "the public" would be happier for such incidents to be judged internally and not come to court.
To deliberately push someone is an assault whoever you are and whatever the circumstances. Assault is not legal and assault that could have contributed to a death surely merits due legal process?
You are making a few assumptions here "the push didn't look severe" oh well that's all right then; and "for someone to die as a result of that they must have had other health issues" so now its your fault if you aren't able to withstand an assault?
A decade ago yes this probably would have been dismissed out of hand...thank goodness we have made progress in that respect and made policing more acountable.
To deliberately push someone is an assault whoever you are and whatever the circumstances. Assault is not legal and assault that could have contributed to a death surely merits due legal process?
You are making a few assumptions here "the push didn't look severe" oh well that's all right then; and "for someone to die as a result of that they must have had other health issues" so now its your fault if you aren't able to withstand an assault?
A decade ago yes this probably would have been dismissed out of hand...thank goodness we have made progress in that respect and made policing more acountable.
-- answer removed --
Hopefully he will get away with it , just as that Paramedic driver did who killed a woman motorist who pulled out in front of him.
http://www.dailymail....survivable-crash.html
/// The ambulance car was travelling at almost 80 miles an hour as he went to the assistance of a child who'd swallowed a coin ///
/// The Prosecutor said, the call-out was a low priority and it could have been reached in time without Webster breaching the speed limit. ///
What if he had driven at the speed limit and before he got to the child, it had choked to death, what then?
Yes as flipnflap says, "we live in a blame culture these days", because let's face it, if one is found guilty it opens up the opportunity for 'mega bucks' compensation claims.
http://www.dailymail....survivable-crash.html
/// The ambulance car was travelling at almost 80 miles an hour as he went to the assistance of a child who'd swallowed a coin ///
/// The Prosecutor said, the call-out was a low priority and it could have been reached in time without Webster breaching the speed limit. ///
What if he had driven at the speed limit and before he got to the child, it had choked to death, what then?
Yes as flipnflap says, "we live in a blame culture these days", because let's face it, if one is found guilty it opens up the opportunity for 'mega bucks' compensation claims.
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