Pope's Will

[netibiza]

I know I should wait for the official statement, but I heard that the Pope left a 15page will - was he allowed to have private property and if so I suppose he can leave it to anyone he likes.  I thought Nuns etc had to give up most of their personal wealth - but I may be wrong!  Was the Pope paid to be Pope? I just assumed that his personal things came out of the Vatican shopping purse.

[slimfandango]

"Carry no money in your purse". lol

Nuns/Monks take 3 vows, poverty, chastity, obedience. They're in a religious order.

Pope, like most "non-religious-order" is secular. Does not take vow of poverty, although does swear obedience to bishop. Most priests receive a salary. Presume the Pope did.

I think it's an absolute disgrace. If you preach about 'helping the world's poor' then the first thing you do is live in poverty alongside them. If you don't want that, fine, but don't preach to me (not you netibiza) about 'Jesus and his message'. I'm not just lashing out here. I know a great number of 'professional religious' who live extremely comfortably off the contributions of people who are just above the bread line. (I can't count the number of 'thin' priests I know on one very slim finger).

[Top totty]

slimfandango.  Here here here is what I say to your reply.  It made me laugh to see so many desperatly poor people making their way to pay their last respects to the Pope when there he was lay out in complete gold and silver splendor. URGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

 

I was taught by Nuns and believe me they lived very very comfortably, always had brand new cars (and still do) and the whole thing about religion makes me sick.

[RevShirls]

I'm not sure about the contents of the will but apparently according to the Vatican he started writing it in the 1970s. I would imagine some of it might be about where his own literary works should go. It has also been mentioned that the will contains the name of a cardinal to be promoted. A will isn't necessarily about possessions though. Having said that nuns and monks are allowed some of their own personal possessions. One of my best friends is a nun and she is one of the loveliest, funny, people I have ever met. She has a few of her own possessions - including some bits and pieces (books, ornaments....even a whoopee cushion and other bad taste gifts) we, and her family, have given to her over the years.

[RevShirls]

Another point, slimfandango. I am a minister in Sweden and I do earn a wage. I am not catholic but I have no objection to anyone earning a wage. I have spent a good part of my life fighting for better wages for people as well as other social justice issues. 

I think it is important that ministers and priests do have a fair wage (not too much and not too little) because often they have families or they have things to buy. I don't want my husband and my wee girl to suffer because of my chosen vocation. I work 50% and earn 6697 kronor (�503) pounds each month. I don't think this is excessive.

My dad was a minister and my brother and I had to wear second-hand clothes, get free dinner tickets (different colour from those who could pay - ours were pink) and generally do without a lot. It didn't affect me so much. These things have never been so important to you but it was terrible for my brother.  I do know that it was difficult for my dad to focus on his work sometimes because of the stress of trying to make ends meet (dodgy cars that always broke down and no money to repair them etc)

[netibiza]

I have absolutely no objection to the nuns, vicars, priests et al of this world earning their living I just wondered what it was all about.

[slimfandango]

You must be an exception, RevShirls. The majority who I know live in a much larger, swisher house than those who they 'serve', drive a nice car, and eat til they are fat (just look at the number of fat clergy bouncing about). Many of them are scrambling, nay stepping over one another to get to be monsignor, bishop etc, knowing that this will lead to an even bigger house and even more fine dining, at some pauper's expense. From this 'pauper's expense' they contribute a certain amount to the vatican, so that some guy who is supposed to represent some very poor guy from 2000 years ago can live in one of the nicest palaces I have ever been in in my life. The whole situation is vastly open to abuse and many openly abuse it. And they receive huge concessions from the state to do so.

And this is all for what? The propagation of good? A charity? No. It's for the propagation of a mindless collage of archaic mumbo jumbo of which even those who propagate it have a very loose grasp.

The single worst blot on the history of humanity. I'm ashamed to be sharing my space in history with this disgrace.

[El D]

I agree such hypocrisy is sickening. More Diana syndrome emerging here as well. 'I never met the Pope or heard what he said, I didn't even know his approach to difficult questions regarding my hocus pocus faith, but he has been a great influence on my life and I will miss him terribly'.

[Dom Tuk]

I find the point that 'he was a well travelled pope who visited more countries than any other pope' (also substitute queen for pope) a totally useless argument. Modern day travel is much more accessible than say 40 years ago...so yes they will travel....its all part of the fun...someone else is paying for it and when you can stay in a palace in another country with hardly any loss of trappings then of course you would be mad not to travel. Oh my heart bleeds for the sacrifices they make. 

[ursula62]

Priests are treated very differently than nuns. Priests do not live in communities (convents) like nuns do. They are attached to a church or group of churches. They live in ordinary houses, and go on holidays etc. They are also allowed to own possessions, particularly books, but also propery.

Nuns were thought of as the "brides of Christ" and traditionally brought a dowry to the convent and owned no property of their own - this dates back to the idea of a married woman's property becoming her husband's on the marriage (the idea was subsequently overthrown in England by the Married Woman's Property Act, which applies to women married to real men - but not to those married to Christ).

However, I think the problem here is the understanding of the vow of poverty. It doesn't so much mean being poor, e.g. living on the breadline. It is taken more to mean not owning your own property but sharing it with others in the church; and not being able to choose to do what you want when you want.

Yes, the churches do make money from the poor in society, but Jesus said "the poor are always with us" and often those who have least moneyare the most devout.

I do agree that Bishops don't need to live in mansions - a 2 up 2 down council house is good enough for most of us, particularly those without children!

[RevShirls]

To answer your question, netbiza, I just heard on sky news that the pope never left any material property.

[netibiza]

Yes RevShirls I also saw it - but didn't catch the rest of it . So 15 pages of what has he bequeathed??

[slimfandango]

Yes, but ursula, aren't you forgetting about all those irish bishops with children?

[smudge]

RevShirls is correct & the Pope also asked that all his private papers to be destroyed.

[slimfandango]

Maybe the '4th secret of fatima' is among it.

Gosh, IAP, no one has mentioned that on here really. What the heck is the next guy going to do? JPII was swimming against a tide of anti-contraception and women priests. Will be interesting to see what happens.

[netibiza]

But surely INP(you sound like a political party now - you've got my vote) the Pope cannot change Catholic laws and tell other Pope's what to do - isn't it all carved in stone - which is why he cannot life the rules on contraception etc. I am just surmising as I don't (contrary to belief) know everything!!!!

[slimfandango]

Sorry if my last message caused offence. It should have read 'What is the next person going to do'.

[slimfandango]

netibiza, you are on my wavelength. Literally! I keep typing messages at the same time as you!

[netibiza]

Oops senior typo there - mean change the  rules

[netibiza]

slimfangdango you are my alter ego - one of us is good the other is bad Hmmm